Nice! freshbsd.org/freebsd/src/commit/df7…d8c354a907d2c2f85a6e18f356f76458f57

Title: FreeBSD / src / df7bbd8c354a907d2c2f85a6e18f356f76458f57 - FreshBSD

Will we ever get zsh in base?

ghoti, bash is not in base either so zsh has good company in ports. :-)

You can see the problem. If base is cracked open to put on in then everyone's favorite shell would be pushing to get through the door too.

It would be *so* much easier not to have to limit myself to /bin/sh when writing portable tools, though. And zsh has a much more compatible license than bash.

I totally agree with keeping bash -- and any other virally-licensed code -- out of base. But what other options are there? I feel we're inviting MORE people to install base post-install by not giving them a viable alternative in base.

People around me are extolling the virtues of fish. And there is ksh and mksh. And there are others too.

As far as writing portable scripts goes though I don't use it for my command line shell I only write #!/bin/sh portable shell scripts. I don't find it limiting. :-)

If one wants to write using an interpreter from ports the standard method is #!/usr/bin/env foo where foo is perl, python, ruby, bash, zsh, or other.

Then it will find it on PATH and the resulting script will run portably across systems.

Perhaps not limiting, but certainly slower .. and more typing. I get that there are options, and material for debate. But we're not having that debate. Is that intentional?

I am sorry but the point you are making is unclear to me. Do you want to have the debate or do you want to avoid the debate?

And not sure why it is a debate at all. It is what it is. I have no control over it. I just use the system.

And as for slower well Benchmarks with Standard Deviation or it didn't happen. I don't observe any significant slower performance.

me too. I think that something as fundamental as adding another interactive shell to base would require debate. Perhaps I'm wrong, I dunno.

Okay. Yes. It should have discussion for changing base. But I am not a committer so discussing it with me is not going to accomplish anything.

As for slower, it would of course totally depend on code. Various people have answered SO questions with speed comparisons of solutions based in bash vs sh+awk, etc. One would need a "standard" task to make a proper analysis. At the moment, I only have my own anecdotes.

Sure it'll accomplish something. If I can convince *you* that we should have another shell, then there's one more voice on-board when a discussion finally happens. :)

I'm not a committer either. At one point I was managing perhaps 20 ports, but not a committer there either. But we all have a voice.

I never write bash scripts. That shell is bloated and slow when it comes to scripts. But I do use it for my command line shell.

However recent developments in bash annoy me. Which has me less emotionally attached to it now than before.

Shell scripts are great for command and control. But if someone needs complex data structures then one should use perl, python, ruby, or other that has full language support for complex data structures.

When people start saying a script shell is too slow for them I immediately assume that they should have switched to one of the other full languages but mistakenly did not.

And I realize C is not for every task and not for everyone.

I must relocate. BBIAB.

I split my time between tcsh and bash as an interactive shell. I've been writing in bash and zsh since the 1990s, and used various incarnations of sh. I'm not emotionally attached to any shell, though I'm most comfortable in bash and zsh.

But I disagree regarding complex data structures. I feel having an interpreted language like one of the ones you mention would be great. And being able to use one without installing a port or pkg would be even better

I mean, it's great that we have awk for arrays, but when each of the more complex things we do is in a different tool, it is more work to tie them together.

whats wrong about having extendet tools in ports/packages?

Hi is there a way to remove a package and its dependencies?

right now i do, pkg remove example and then pkg autoremove

not sure if i am doing it the right way. I did search online on my mobile, as i am restricted to that for now.

sozuba, the command that you used, it removed only the packages that are not necessary in your system

sozuba, you should first remove the main package and after you can run autoremove to remove its dependencies that are not needed by the system

dimbag: yes that's what i mentiioned earlier as well. "pkg remove example and then pkg autoremove"

thanks for confirmation. I was unsure and it was getting to my nerves if i was doing the right thing. :)

Thank you again

you are welcome

I guess i have to get used to it ;)

Where should I look for information about commands, options related to be a NFS *client* on FreeBSD 1[2-4]? Are there other resources besides "mount_nfs(8)" manual page?

*ugh* Sorry, I meant to ask for N*I*S, not NFS🤦🏽‍♂️

parv: there's probably plenty of options in sysctl which, never mind, I have no idea

meena, In any case, how are you?

Is it not bit early for you, meena? Or am I just noticing that now?

parv: there is a man page for nis, and in the section "see also" are some commands. If thats what you are trying to find.

souji, Aye, thanks much. Yes, I happened to find the "yp(8)" manual page earlier; that was more what I was looking for.

pk :)

*ok

parv: I've moved to UTC six months ago

well, six months ago we also had DST *shakes fist at EU*

meena, Alright. So it is me who just noticed.

meena at this point the options are Bastille, Jailer and Pot. all manage jails but have different missions.

speaking of yp, we have a huge patch for the Makefile parv

we added autofs support and everything

parv now we run NIS+NFS+Autofs all on FreeBSD.

parv I keep forget to send a patch, but I will soon

antranigv, You are just teasing me (though that applies only in context of work; here I am in my free time thinking about work💩)

meena I started using Netlink yesterday on -CURRENT. it seems nice to be able to do `ip a` on FreeBSD. unfortunatly Netlink does not respect FreeBSD restrictions, so a Linux+Jail+Netlink = seeing everything on the host. and VNET Linux Jails with Netlink have some weird bug.

parv well, I can "paste" the patch somewhere, until I send an official patch. wait, do you *need* the NIS+NFS+AutoFS patch?

antranigv, Thanks for the offer. Nah. I can wait whenever that patch would lend in some non-0 release

parv sure thing :))

I will do my best to send that today anyway.

antranigv: how useful is ip compared to FreeBSD's ifconfig?

meena when was the last time you used Linux? ip is still pretty sh*tty

antranigv: two years ago? I dunno, pre pandemic

but i work on cloud-init and I see the horrible things Linux people have to do to get any info about the state of their networking devices

(read magic files in /sys/classes/net/)

meena yeah, I wish I knew Kernel programming, otherwise I'd add the Jail restrictions to Netlink. But I have to say, the team has done an amazing job, yesterday I was able to boot!!! a Linux distro, with services and everything :D

I can't wait for 14.0-RELEASE to arrive!

"/bin/sh" as the default root shell!🤘🏽

antranigv, What features are you wanting (on 14 release)?

parv I love having sh as default shell, but I miss some features from tcsh, like arrow search. sh has that too, but it's not as good.

parv the Linux compat layer is good, and I REALLY like the new release system, compared to <14

it's much more cleaner.

antranigv, Sorry, what is this "new release system" that you mentioned?

parv when you clone src and run Make buildworld :) and the release infrastructure for CD/Cloud/VM and such things. oh and I LOVE makefs -t zfs :)

antranigv, I see.

antranigv, Thanks

If (static) zsh does not behave as expected in "single user mode" (causes odd key responses, garbled text), could that be due to something missing in "term{info,cap}"?

parv, probably because TERM is incorrect in single user mode, or because /usr is a separate filesystem and the term info you need isn't in the minimal set in /etc

jilles, Thanks for the list of things to investigate. (It is not the second point in my case)

uh, I need a statically built DTrace so I can run it in Linux Jails :D

Darn, no "ncurses" for zsh in static mode; from "ports/shells/zsh/Makefile": STATIC_CONFIGURE_OFF= --enable-dynamic --with-term-lib="ncursesw ncurses"

... that change went in 2015 (but also forbidden before that via other means)

Hi, i mever used to feel any heat when i was running linux (void) without a dm, but after installing freebsd, without any aditionall apps installed, i can feel the heat in my laptop. I am not complaining, ia m just asking what would have i done wrong? what could be the cause?

any help?

void even with dm (awesome/openbox/hyprland)never had any heathing issues

I am going to check the running process and the see what's causing this, but just curious if this si common and people already had a solution here

sozuba, Let the people know your CPU, GPU, architecture, etc to see if they could offer some specific suggestions

parv: thank you

CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4300U CPU @ 1.90GHz (2494.38-MHz K8-class CPU) , GPU in use : Haswell-ULT Integrated Graphics Controller', arch: x86-64. I am using a Lenovo Thinkpad E450 laptop. Let me know if further information is needed. Thanks

Are you using "powerd" package? See wiki.freebsd.org/TuningPowerConsumption

Title: TuningPowerConsumption - FreeBSD Wiki

parv that's a good read, thanks. I will check the package and also reflect things in the link and see how this workd

thank you

how to mount ntfs automatically in freebsd? idk why i always get unknown filesystem after i put my disk setting on /etc/fstab

antranigv: I don't know, is the stress ball as IT savvy as the rubber duck?

debdrup: not easily found anymore, it seems

ebay has a lot of "boob stress ball" though, but it is not the same

anddam :DDD

bye

so, someone check me... i have freebsd on my laptop, got a new laptop. i'm thinking i use usb stick and after building ZFS on new laptop (maybe default install), i just zfs send/recv and i'm migrated.

Demosthenex: boot mfsbsd and do send|receive over ssh or mbuffer (i can't remember if it's included)

if you build mfsbsd yourself, you can include it

debdrup: already had usb, already did a scratch install of freebsd to debug uefi booting...

i could just wipe that pool and send/recv ;]

I have a ZFS snapshot (`zroot/jails/_base@fresh`) that I'm using as a template when creating new jails, copying it with `zfs send -R zroot/jails/_base@fresh | zfs receive zroot/jails/$NEW_JAIL_NAME`. This also copies the snapshot, so running `zfs list -t snapshot` I see, among others, `zroot/jails/$NEW_JAIL_NAME@fresh`. I have no use for the @fresh snapshot for a newly created jail base -- I make one when I'm finished configuring it (installing

packages, setting up rc.conf, etc). How can I prevent this snapshot being... there?

FWIW at the moment I just run `zfs destroy zroot/jails/$NEW_JAIL_NAME@fresh`

Demosthenex I think I have a blog post about that

Demosthenex here's what I wrote when I was migrating: weblog.antranigv.am/posts/2020/03/freebsd-zor-migration

Title: FreeBSD ZFS on Root Migration | Freedom Be With All

domlaut oh right, I do that with Jailer too, I always forget to delete that @fresh snapshot.

antranigv: so i moved from my original install on hdd to an ssd using a zfs copy. so i think i can do that again from laptop to laptop

Demosthenex yup!

antranigv: This Jailer? github.com/illuria/jailer

Title: GitHub - illuria/jailer: Minimal, flexible, and easy-to-expand FreeBSD jail manager.

domlaut yes sir

or ma'am. damn the military is still in me

Hm. Never heard of that one, but definitely wanted to avoid iocage/ezjail/bastille

domlaut congrats, we're just a jail.conf.d wrapper, that automates zfs and rc.conf commands

domlaut the readme has all the info that you need.

shell, Make, and Lua. I can get behind that.

I'll check it out

domlaut thanks!

do you have anything you use for 'configuration management' in roughly the same fashion? I'd love an Ansible w/o Python

domlaut not yet. I will be writing some Ansible thingies to make it work better with Ansible, altho techincally it would be a Jailer wrapper for the create command, and generic Jail wrapper (if there's none yet)

domlaut other than that, we'll be adding a Jailerfile, similar to Dockerfile, for what I'd like to call "Application Containers"

not in the context of jailer, I meant as a replacement for what ansible does as a job

so we can have OS Containers (a.k.a full jails) and Application Containers (small jails with your app)

domlaut nope :( at $WORK we just have daily_scripts/job.sh :D

yeah, thought so :-)

i need to check my flags to do an incremental copy (ie: sync all, then sync the changes) so i can migrate in the background

domlaut: i'm using bastille templates to setup new jails on my server, and using salt to deploy and manage

domlaut if you have any suggestions, please let me know, I'd love to have a complete FreeBSD containers ecosystem with automation and configuration.

and i'm using salt in pure python mode, none of that yaml crap

Demosthenex: yeah, I'd prefer Salt if it wasn't for the fact the master is x64 only

is it? hrm

i was using puppet, and i just really don't like how they are changing hte language

and my daily machine is an M1 MBP

if i wanted NPM, i wouldn't run freebsd :P

so, you can run the salt apply without a master.

yeah the whole suite is x64 IIRC

there's no ARM salt binary at all

does it support AIX? that's POWER.

well it's python, what binary

can't you do pip3 install salt...

is it?

it's completely python

i know because i don't approve ;]

i'd rather have a compiled agent :P

part of me wants to use consfigurator... but i wanted to tinker with salt for professional credit.

aviary is bash only

but i just don't like ansible at all

ansible yaml reads like a crippled shell script, and it's only imperative

salt and puppet are both declarative

okay, I ran across saltstack/salt #60560 and didn't really look into what's it about

Title: [FEATURE REQUEST] macOS arm64 Support (on repo.saltproject.io/osx/) · Issue #60560 · saltstack/salt · GitHub

60560 – Update port: deskutils/glables to 1.93.1 bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=60560

I had no idea `salt` is Python

I'm guessing the installer package installs x64 Python, requiring Rosetta

but if you skip the installer and get salt via pip, then it should be fine

I'll have to try that out as well -- ideally I'd like to get rid of Python on my servers' base system completely, but ATM it's fine given that Vim also pulls it in

i want as few interpreted languages with remote package managers as possible :P

I don't mind, as long as its jailed

just want a basically-clean base system

yeah, so i'm setting up my new homeserver which performs many roles

at this point what i intend to do is make the base system do ZFS raid, zfs snapshots, and borgbackup.

and then everything else in jails.

that's what I'm doing, yeah

bastille has been handy

and the templating is stupid simple

but i'm trying to get where i can deploy a jail with bastille, which has a salt minion, and off it goes

though i'm considering NOT running a salt minion on my base HW with the salt master.

there have been security implications to that :P

i can still use salt to configure the master but only by manual execution

and since i despise yaml (fyi yaml blows donkey balls), i'm using the salt pyobjects dialect and it's very nice.

have you checked out pyinfra at all?

you can write in python (minor icky) vs yaml (noah flood scale vomiting)

pyinfra?

pyinfra.com

Title: salt.renderers.pyobjects

ooo

the ops actions are python, instead of YAML

unfortunately for me the deal breaker is, hm

I think paramiko?

yeah paramiko is the SSH in python implementation. for whatever reason it doesn't play nice with macOS' ssh-agent

so either I have to have unencrypted keys, or type in the password every time I execute pyinfra

dpaste.org/7CY8S that's salt in pyobjects mode

Title: dpaste/7CY8S (Python)

yeah, it basically looks the same as pyinfra

i really like the idea of using zero mq as a message bus for salt

so does salt require python on the machines you're targeting?

obviously you need it on the control machine, but once it has a ssh connection, how is it doing fact collection, etc?

well, to backtrack a bit, can you even use pyobjects mode without a minion on the target machine(s)?

so i am using a minion on eacch system

each jail

i suppose that's pulling in python

the pyobjects is the config file on the master

have you tried without an agent, with salt-ssh?

pyobjects being on the master is clear, but IIRC Ansible copies the YAMLs you have to targets and then uses the target's Python interpreter to execute whatever it needs

and then PyInfra is totally different - it doesn't use Python on the target side at all

(you only need to have it on the master)

so I'm curious where Salt's pyobject lie in between the two when it comes to needing Python on targeted machines (or jails, same difference)

> Python is required on the remote system (unless using the -r option to send raw ssh commands). The python version requirement is the same as that for a standard Salt installation

(from docs.saltproject.io/en/latest/topics/ssh/index.html, so that answers that)

so, i want the agent and not just remote ssh calls

while i'm learning salt, just to see what it's doing

the only reason i might prefer salt over pyinfra is that i want to define policies and have them routinely enforced, i'm not looking for a multi-host execution engine

though that's a side effect of salt

yup, yup. that makes sense. I'm only using it to bootstrap new hosts, basically

on an unrelated topic, does anyone know why zroot has a mountpoint?

it's wild, the thinkpad t480 has no status lights :P

wait, it probably has a mountpoint for inheritance. let me test that

what command are you looking at?

i have zroot/ROOT/default on /

just `zroot`

zfs list, first item

says mountpoint is /zroot

and then zroot/ROOT is none, and zroot/ROOT/default is /, those are of course fine

I'm guessing the only reason for that mountpoint is inheritance, ie when you do a zfs create zroot/something you get it mounted to /zroot/something

I just did a `zfs set mountpoint=none zroot`, works fine, persists after reboot

after which doing `zfs create zroot/demo` creates a dataset also with a mountpoint=none which is exactly what I want by default, so good :-)

one more thing for Ansible/Salt to do when bootstraping freebsd hosts - setting mountpoint=none for zroot

domlaut[away]: so, i don't mind using cfgmgmt solutions to install packages, configure rc files, confirm settings, etc. but i don't let them touch storage.

Demosthenex: I see your point, and I *am* doing it as a 'raw' shell invocation -- so nothing like an Ansible ZFS module, if such a thing even exists

I have a playbook that's only meant to run once, and the only thing that does is `freebsd-update fetch install`, `pkg install python3`, and `reboot`

could just as easily be a ssh -c invocation instead -- and likely will be once I move to something other than Ansible

guys, i want to use freeBSD as a host operating system and run multiple Jails / VMs, is there any webUI which can help me manage them easier ?

antranigv: does Jailer mount jail ZFS datasets (zroot/jails/JAIL_NAME) under/inside the zroot/jails dataset, or completely standalone? my terminology may not be the best here, but does it set up all jail-releated datasets in a way where zroot/jails (ie. the parent of zroot/jails/JAIL_NAME) doesn't have, or doesn't have to have, a mountpoint?

in other words, if you have some jails and do `zfs set mountpoint=none zroot/jails`, does it say "cannot unmount '/usr/local/jails': pool or dataset is busy", or not? :-)

Is there any WebUI available for bhyve hypervisor ?

L3Fr0g: why? what's easier about a webui?

Demosthenex: Easy access to a guest's graphical console, conceivably.

It's what things like cockpit and virt-manager do

well virtual webby rdp could be a thing

or spice or vnc or whatever

can I partly chroot somehow, where I can keep my /usr/local/bin and whatever shell is already running, but otherwise use / of the new root?

^ yes, that's just called "cd"-ing :facepalm:

domlaut that's true, we do mount zroot/jail to a location (Defaulted to /usr/local/jail). Do you think we shouldn't? I can't find a reason why not.

domlaut it's also good to save some values in /usr/local/jail/.some.hidden.files

domlaut and we do mount zroot/jails/JAIL0 to /usr/local/jails/JAIL0 :)

yeah, I've just done a setup where zroot/jails has no mountpoint, just because it doesn't need one (for my use cases). I figured anything that's not a child zfs dataset doesn't belong in it

obviously /usr/local/jail/.some.hidden.files changes that assumption. do you have any examples?

like what do people put in zroot/jails other than jails?

domlaut in our case we have .default_nettype, so you don't need to specify -nettype epair/bridge every time (the real flag is `-t eb` :D)

domlaut I assume one day I might add other things as well.

ah, so basically you keep various metadata

domlaut yeah.

yeah, that makes sense. cool, thanks!

domlaut thank you! these questions are good, it makes me *think* about things :D

no worries. I'm *very* new to FreeBSD, so mainly trying to figure out how the more experienced people have stuff set up and why

domlaut, everyone does there own thing, but I generally install bare minimum and then slap ports on the top with portmaster for management

git-lite for ports and src

ufs / gmirrored root with ZFS late for the rest of the system

domlaut yeah, Jailer is practically bleeding edge right now, but I hope soon we'll have stability. for now my main priority is writing tests, so I can develop with some ease in mind.

cool cool cool. I'm just replacing two old boxes, one running Ubuntu, the other CentOS 7, with FreeBSD

turns out the tests suite that comes with FreeBSD is pretty dope!

yeekes centos 7 I remember trying to get that running in bhyve it was a nightmare

domlaut hey if you need any help, this is the right place to ask :)

Heh, I generally like CentOS the most out of all Linuxes

ah I am a gentoo guy, I run a custom kernel I designed to be fully compatible with the virtio functionalities offered via bhyve

Debian packaging was always bizzarre to me

and then I figured I use a BSD (via macOS) and BSDs generally have this idea of userland that came with the system *doesn't* mix with user-installed userland

and on antranigv's notes; yep ask anything in here - we are a fairly friendly community :)

bsd is an OS linux is a kernel

yeah but there's no mainstream distro really not following the same model

daemon: There's Debian GNU/kFreeBSD.

daemon I used to be a Gentoo person as well. stickers, blog and everything. I miss Gentoo. but hell emerge was slow.

mason, I keep meaning to check that out, but its kind of the wrong way around for me; I want the linux kernel and the freebsd userland :|

daemon: Bucking all the trends, I will use Emacs viper-mode on Debian GNU/kFreeBSD.

Linux is not flexible enough to have a compat layer like the other Unices :D

Linux kernel for the drivers?

antranigv, eh emerge/portage is slow but once you have 'the system you like' it just kinda keeps working with no worries, plus I really like the community

yep

I like all of it really.

I think by the time you are in the realms of bsd, gentoo, emacs, kfreebsd etc you are already beyond hope and you know what you like :D

daemon the community IS awesome at Gentoo. I used to work on AraxOS, which was a Gentoo fork with Armenian localization and Armenian-ized things. we ended up shutting down the project and just upstreaming everything else.

yeah, no drivers issues with the servers I'm running (and hypervisors), and then my laptop is macOS so no issues there either (well, other than the usual stuff Apple likes to pull occasionally)

okay other than devmatch_blacklist=virtio_random.ko

antranigv, yep its really the communities that keep me to the OS's I use :) netbsd used to also have an awesome one, not checked up on it recently

domlaut I always have a both my FreeBSD and macOS laptops in me, in case Apple decides to do something stupid :D altho I use my macOS mostly for CEO work (docs and whatnot), while engineering on FreeBSD.

btw, does anyone run a different shell for root - and if so, how?

I type 'zsh' after I logged into (t)csh

daemon it weird that one of the best communities dies in the last 20 years. I'm talking about Unix Workstation people.

how about exec?

domlaut many of my friends use zsh. I like plain old /bin/sh

domlaut there's a shell named exec?

I like to make sure I can login to something and that is it

if I want to swap to zsh then I type zsh

:)

I meant putting exec in .cshrc for interactive sessions

I am aware and if you wish to do that you absolutely can

domlaut: That's how I do it. In case zsh fails, it falls back to csh so there isn't a lockout.

but personally no, I leave root alone

domlaut: I run bash as my root shell.

domlaut: chsh -s /usr/local/bin/bash root

from /usr/local/bin, or statically linked and cp'd into /bin?

plus how often do you even actually login as root?

domlaut: But, I also then set a password for the toor user and set his shell to /bin/sh

mason, psh not /usr/local/bin/dungeon ? :P

ok - I didn't want to change root's shell so I don't lock myself out, basically (thus the exec solution for interactive shells only)

is toor's only purpose recovering root if you f it up?

domlaut: That's why you should consider a password and shell for toor.

Yes.

domlaut, yes root|toor

oh, it comes by default!

For now.

Folks have talked about defenestrating it. Horrible lack of respect for tradition, but there it is.

I would love to know why linux defaults to www-data instead of www

for httpd's

domlaut: paste.purplehat.org/view/33a7a1b6

Title: tcsh/zsh if - PHO Paste

I add that to my root's ~/.cshrc file.

also why 'wheel' disappeared from modern systems

ek: and that's outside of if ($?prompt)?

'cause it looks indented like it came from the default if ($?prompt) ... if ($?tcsh) ... block

domlaut: Yes. Anywhere inside the "if ($?prompt) then \n endif" block will do.

yeah, just checking and looking at what that -l flag does for zsh

start a login shell

^this

thought so

I've had zsh either fail to build/install correctly and other random stuff. Kinda bites you in the bum if you change the default shell and it fails to work.

At least this way, if it fails, you've got the default shell to work with.

I've done it as [ -x /usr/local/bin/zsh ] && exec /usr/local/bin/zsh inside that same block

but I see my $SHELL is wrong so I'll have to put that in too

though now that I know about toor I may rethink if it'd just be easier to not faff around with .cshrc at all

as for using root, I do use it basically for anything requiring root, incl dealing with jails

I have doas, but exclusively for `doas su -`

the reasoning being any other admin on the box can su to root and figure out what's been done to the machine recently that required root

(you could go through syslog, this way is just more convenient for any fire-fighting scenarios)

and the reason I have doas is just so no passwords need to be entered to switch to root - that's all

cat doas.conf being `permit nopass :wheel as root cmd su args -`

SHELL is just the shell from the passwd database.

there's bound to be scripts and tools making decisions off of that var (which config files to write to, what autocompletions to put where, etc)

that being said, not really realistic I'd be running them under root - just system software

probably fine if it stays as is

daemon: wheel disappeared from Debian-family systems only