00:07:19 Nice! https://freshbsd.org/freebsd/src/commit/df7bbd8c354a907d2c2f85a6e18f356f76458f57 00:07:20 Title: FreeBSD / src / df7bbd8c354a907d2c2f85a6e18f356f76458f57 - FreshBSD 00:59:14 * ghoti sighs 00:59:21 Will we ever get zsh in base? 01:17:35 ghoti, bash is not in base either so zsh has good company in ports. :-) 01:18:12 You can see the problem. If base is cracked open to put on in then everyone's favorite shell would be pushing to get through the door too. 01:18:41 It would be *so* much easier not to have to limit myself to /bin/sh when writing portable tools, though. And zsh has a much more compatible license than bash. 01:20:43 I totally agree with keeping bash -- and any other virally-licensed code -- out of base. But what other options are there? I feel we're inviting MORE people to install base post-install by not giving them a viable alternative in base. 01:23:20 People around me are extolling the virtues of fish. And there is ksh and mksh. And there are others too. 01:24:58 As far as writing portable scripts goes though I don't use it for my command line shell I only write #!/bin/sh portable shell scripts. I don't find it limiting. :-) 01:26:36 If one wants to write using an interpreter from ports the standard method is #!/usr/bin/env foo where foo is perl, python, ruby, bash, zsh, or other. 01:26:56 Then it will find it on PATH and the resulting script will run portably across systems. 01:37:08 Perhaps not limiting, but certainly slower .. and more typing. I get that there are options, and material for debate. But we're not having that debate. Is that intentional? 01:39:08 I am sorry but the point you are making is unclear to me. Do you want to have the debate or do you want to avoid the debate? 01:39:22 And not sure why it is a debate at all. It is what it is. I have no control over it. I just use the system. 01:40:15 And as for slower well Benchmarks with Standard Deviation or it didn't happen. I don't observe any significant slower performance. 01:40:35 me too. I think that something as fundamental as adding another interactive shell to base would require debate. Perhaps I'm wrong, I dunno. 01:41:22 Okay. Yes. It should have discussion for changing base. But I am not a committer so discussing it with me is not going to accomplish anything. 01:42:23 As for slower, it would of course totally depend on code. Various people have answered SO questions with speed comparisons of solutions based in bash vs sh+awk, etc. One would need a "standard" task to make a proper analysis. At the moment, I only have my own anecdotes. 01:43:14 Sure it'll accomplish something. If I can convince *you* that we should have another shell, then there's one more voice on-board when a discussion finally happens. :) 01:44:35 I'm not a committer either. At one point I was managing perhaps 20 ports, but not a committer there either. But we all have a voice. 01:45:04 I never write bash scripts. That shell is bloated and slow when it comes to scripts. But I do use it for my command line shell. 01:45:25 However recent developments in bash annoy me. Which has me less emotionally attached to it now than before. 01:47:10 Shell scripts are great for command and control. But if someone needs complex data structures then one should use perl, python, ruby, or other that has full language support for complex data structures. 01:47:45 When people start saying a script shell is too slow for them I immediately assume that they should have switched to one of the other full languages but mistakenly did not. 01:48:31 And I realize C is not for every task and not for everyone. 01:48:46 I must relocate. BBIAB. 01:51:24 I split my time between tcsh and bash as an interactive shell. I've been writing in bash and zsh since the 1990s, and used various incarnations of sh. I'm not emotionally attached to any shell, though I'm most comfortable in bash and zsh. 01:52:13 But I disagree regarding complex data structures. I feel having an interpreted language like one of the ones you mention would be great. And being able to use one without installing a port or pkg would be even better 01:54:05 I mean, it's great that we have awk for arrays, but when each of the more complex things we do is in a different tool, it is more work to tie them together. 01:55:07 whats wrong about having extendet tools in ports/packages? 06:46:37 Hi is there a way to remove a package and its dependencies? 06:46:56 right now i do, pkg remove example and then pkg autoremove 06:47:45 not sure if i am doing it the right way. I did search online on my mobile, as i am restricted to that for now. 06:50:50 sozuba, the command that you used, it removed only the packages that are not necessary in your system 06:52:46 sozuba, you should first remove the main package and after you can run autoremove to remove its dependencies that are not needed by the system 06:53:54 dimbag: yes that's what i mentiioned earlier as well. "pkg remove example and then pkg autoremove" 06:54:20 thanks for confirmation. I was unsure and it was getting to my nerves if i was doing the right thing. :) 06:54:24 Thank you again 06:54:33 you are welcome 06:54:37 I guess i have to get used to it ;) 07:28:08 Where should I look for information about commands, options related to be a NFS *client* on FreeBSD 1[2-4]? Are there other resources besides "mount_nfs(8)" manual page? 07:36:20 *ugh* Sorry, I meant to ask for N*I*S, not NFS🤦🏽‍♂️ 07:37:10 parv: there's probably plenty of options in sysctl which, never mind, I have no idea 07:38:24 meena, In any case, how are you? 07:39:16 Is it not bit early for you, meena? Or am I just noticing that now? 07:52:28 parv: there is a man page for nis, and in the section "see also" are some commands. If thats what you are trying to find. 07:54:15 souji, Aye, thanks much. Yes, I happened to find the "yp(8)" manual page earlier; that was more what I was looking for. 08:00:16 pk :) 08:00:21 *ok 08:02:01 parv: I've moved to UTC six months ago 08:02:33 well, six months ago we also had DST *shakes fist at EU* 08:05:01 meena, Alright. So it is me who just noticed. 08:05:11 meena at this point the options are Bastille, Jailer and Pot. all manage jails but have different missions. 08:05:36 speaking of yp, we have a huge patch for the Makefile parv 08:05:43 we added autofs support and everything 08:05:58 parv now we run NIS+NFS+Autofs all on FreeBSD. 08:06:15 parv I keep forget to send a patch, but I will soon 08:07:12 antranigv, You are just teasing me (though that applies only in context of work; here I am in my free time thinking about work💩) 08:07:20 meena I started using Netlink yesterday on -CURRENT. it seems nice to be able to do `ip a` on FreeBSD. unfortunatly Netlink does not respect FreeBSD restrictions, so a Linux+Jail+Netlink = seeing everything on the host. and VNET Linux Jails with Netlink have some weird bug. 08:08:13 parv well, I can "paste" the patch somewhere, until I send an official patch. wait, do you *need* the NIS+NFS+AutoFS patch? 08:09:04 antranigv, Thanks for the offer. Nah. I can wait whenever that patch would lend in some non-0 release 08:10:44 parv sure thing :)) 08:10:52 I will do my best to send that today anyway. 09:07:27 antranigv: how useful is ip compared to FreeBSD's ifconfig? 09:08:22 meena when was the last time you used Linux? ip is still pretty sh*tty 09:09:49 antranigv: two years ago? I dunno, pre pandemic 09:11:06 but i work on cloud-init and I see the horrible things Linux people have to do to get any info about the state of their networking devices 09:11:27 (read magic files in /sys/classes/net/) 09:12:56 meena yeah, I wish I knew Kernel programming, otherwise I'd add the Jail restrictions to Netlink. But I have to say, the team has done an amazing job, yesterday I was able to boot!!! a Linux distro, with services and everything :D 09:14:18 I can't wait for 14.0-RELEASE to arrive! 09:15:19 "/bin/sh" as the default root shell!🤘🏽 09:16:12 antranigv, What features are you wanting (on 14 release)? 09:16:49 parv I love having sh as default shell, but I miss some features from tcsh, like arrow search. sh has that too, but it's not as good. 09:17:20 parv the Linux compat layer is good, and I REALLY like the new release system, compared to <14 09:17:25 it's much more cleaner. 09:18:03 antranigv, Sorry, what is this "new release system" that you mentioned? 09:18:50 parv when you clone src and run Make buildworld :) and the release infrastructure for CD/Cloud/VM and such things. oh and I LOVE makefs -t zfs :) 09:19:14 antranigv, I see. 09:19:33 antranigv, Thanks 09:30:03 If (static) zsh does not behave as expected in "single user mode" (causes odd key responses, garbled text), could that be due to something missing in "term{info,cap}"? 09:31:19 parv, probably because TERM is incorrect in single user mode, or because /usr is a separate filesystem and the term info you need isn't in the minimal set in /etc 09:32:24 jilles, Thanks for the list of things to investigate. (It is not the second point in my case) 09:34:12 uh, I need a statically built DTrace so I can run it in Linux Jails :D 09:36:40 Darn, no "ncurses" for zsh in static mode; from "ports/shells/zsh/Makefile": STATIC_CONFIGURE_OFF= --enable-dynamic --with-term-lib="ncursesw ncurses" 09:43:19 ... that change went in 2015 (but also forbidden before that via other means) 09:45:53 Hi, i mever used to feel any heat when i was running linux (void) without a dm, but after installing freebsd, without any aditionall apps installed, i can feel the heat in my laptop. I am not complaining, ia m just asking what would have i done wrong? what could be the cause? 09:46:03 any help? 09:46:42 void even with dm (awesome/openbox/hyprland)never had any heathing issues 09:47:23 I am going to check the running process and the see what's causing this, but just curious if this si common and people already had a solution here 09:49:40 sozuba, Let the people know your CPU, GPU, architecture, etc to see if they could offer some specific suggestions 09:51:05 parv: thank you 09:57:06 CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4300U CPU @ 1.90GHz (2494.38-MHz K8-class CPU) , GPU in use : Haswell-ULT Integrated Graphics Controller', arch: x86-64. I am using a Lenovo Thinkpad E450 laptop. Let me know if further information is needed. Thanks 10:01:50 Are you using "powerd" package? See https://wiki.freebsd.org/TuningPowerConsumption 10:01:53 Title: TuningPowerConsumption - FreeBSD Wiki 10:07:57 parv that's a good read, thanks. I will check the package and also reflect things in the link and see how this workd 10:08:00 thank you 10:35:07 how to mount ntfs automatically in freebsd? idk why i always get unknown filesystem after i put my disk setting on /etc/fstab 11:00:30 antranigv: I don't know, is the stress ball as IT savvy as the rubber duck? 11:05:10 debdrup: not easily found anymore, it seems 11:05:25 ebay has a lot of "boob stress ball" though, but it is not the same 11:08:07 anddam :DDD 11:19:08 bye 13:05:39 so, someone check me... i have freebsd on my laptop, got a new laptop. i'm thinking i use usb stick and after building ZFS on new laptop (maybe default install), i just zfs send/recv and i'm migrated. 13:53:48 Demosthenex: boot mfsbsd and do send|receive over ssh or mbuffer (i can't remember if it's included) 13:54:34 if you build mfsbsd yourself, you can include it 13:56:39 debdrup: already had usb, already did a scratch install of freebsd to debug uefi booting... 13:56:49 i could just wipe that pool and send/recv ;] 14:04:59 I have a ZFS snapshot (`zroot/jails/_base@fresh`) that I'm using as a template when creating new jails, copying it with `zfs send -R zroot/jails/_base@fresh | zfs receive zroot/jails/$NEW_JAIL_NAME`. This also copies the snapshot, so running `zfs list -t snapshot` I see, among others, `zroot/jails/$NEW_JAIL_NAME@fresh`. I have no use for the @fresh snapshot for a newly created jail base -- I make one when I'm finished configuring it (installing 14:04:59 packages, setting up rc.conf, etc). How can I prevent this snapshot being... there? 14:05:44 FWIW at the moment I just run `zfs destroy zroot/jails/$NEW_JAIL_NAME@fresh` 14:35:21 Demosthenex I think I have a blog post about that 14:35:50 Demosthenex here's what I wrote when I was migrating: https://weblog.antranigv.am/posts/2020/03/freebsd-zor-migration/ 14:35:52 Title: FreeBSD ZFS on Root Migration | Freedom Be With All 14:37:01 domlaut oh right, I do that with Jailer too, I always forget to delete that @fresh snapshot. 14:38:28 antranigv: so i moved from my original install on hdd to an ssd using a zfs copy. so i think i can do that again from laptop to laptop 14:38:42 Demosthenex yup! 14:42:13 antranigv: This Jailer? https://github.com/illuria/jailer 14:42:14 Title: GitHub - illuria/jailer: Minimal, flexible, and easy-to-expand FreeBSD jail manager. 14:42:20 domlaut yes sir 14:42:37 or ma'am. damn the military is still in me 14:42:43 Hm. Never heard of that one, but definitely wanted to avoid iocage/ezjail/bastille 14:43:10 domlaut congrats, we're just a jail.conf.d wrapper, that automates zfs and rc.conf commands 14:43:21 domlaut the readme has all the info that you need. 14:43:50 shell, Make, and Lua. I can get behind that. 14:44:01 I'll check it out 14:44:06 domlaut thanks! 14:45:02 do you have anything you use for 'configuration management' in roughly the same fashion? I'd love an Ansible w/o Python 14:46:12 domlaut not yet. I will be writing some Ansible thingies to make it work better with Ansible, altho techincally it would be a Jailer wrapper for the create command, and generic Jail wrapper (if there's none yet) 14:46:33 domlaut other than that, we'll be adding a Jailerfile, similar to Dockerfile, for what I'd like to call "Application Containers" 14:46:53 not in the context of jailer, I meant as a replacement for what ansible does as a job 14:46:59 so we can have OS Containers (a.k.a full jails) and Application Containers (small jails with your app) 14:47:18 domlaut nope :( at $WORK we just have daily_scripts/job.sh :D 14:47:29 yeah, thought so :-) 14:47:36 i need to check my flags to do an incremental copy (ie: sync all, then sync the changes) so i can migrate in the background 14:48:00 domlaut: i'm using bastille templates to setup new jails on my server, and using salt to deploy and manage 14:48:00 domlaut if you have any suggestions, please let me know, I'd love to have a complete FreeBSD containers ecosystem with automation and configuration. 14:48:21 and i'm using salt in pure python mode, none of that yaml crap 14:49:45 Demosthenex: yeah, I'd prefer Salt if it wasn't for the fact the master is x64 only 14:50:05 is it? hrm 14:50:19 i was using puppet, and i just really don't like how they are changing hte language 14:50:21 and my daily machine is an M1 MBP 14:50:28 if i wanted NPM, i wouldn't run freebsd :P 14:50:43 so, you can run the salt apply without a master. 14:51:16 yeah the whole suite is x64 IIRC 14:51:34 there's no ARM salt binary at all 14:51:36 does it support AIX? that's POWER. 14:51:42 well it's python, what binary 14:51:57 can't you do pip3 install salt... 14:52:07 is it? 14:52:32 it's completely python 14:52:43 i know because i don't approve ;] 14:52:49 i'd rather have a compiled agent :P 14:53:11 part of me wants to use consfigurator... but i wanted to tinker with salt for professional credit. 14:53:35 aviary is bash only 14:53:42 but i just don't like ansible at all 14:54:03 ansible yaml reads like a crippled shell script, and it's only imperative 14:54:11 salt and puppet are both declarative 14:54:20 okay, I ran across https://github.com/saltstack/salt/issues/60560 and didn't really look into what's it about 14:54:22 Title: [FEATURE REQUEST] macOS arm64 Support (on repo.saltproject.io/osx/) · Issue #60560 · saltstack/salt · GitHub 14:54:22 60560 – Update port: deskutils/glables to 1.93.1 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=60560 14:54:26 I had no idea `salt` is Python 14:55:48 I'm guessing the installer package installs x64 Python, requiring Rosetta 14:56:17 but if you skip the installer and get salt via pip, then it should be fine 14:57:41 I'll have to try that out as well -- ideally I'd like to get rid of Python on my servers' base system completely, but ATM it's fine given that Vim also pulls it in 14:58:19 i want as few interpreted languages with remote package managers as possible :P 14:58:46 I don't mind, as long as its jailed 14:58:58 just want a basically-clean base system 14:59:27 yeah, so i'm setting up my new homeserver which performs many roles 14:59:51 at this point what i intend to do is make the base system do ZFS raid, zfs snapshots, and borgbackup. 14:59:58 and then everything else in jails. 15:00:08 that's what I'm doing, yeah 15:00:16 bastille has been handy 15:00:21 and the templating is stupid simple 15:00:37 but i'm trying to get where i can deploy a jail with bastille, which has a salt minion, and off it goes 15:00:52 though i'm considering NOT running a salt minion on my base HW with the salt master. 15:01:01 there have been security implications to that :P 15:01:14 i can still use salt to configure the master but only by manual execution 15:01:52 and since i despise yaml (fyi yaml blows donkey balls), i'm using the salt pyobjects dialect and it's very nice. 15:02:03 have you checked out pyinfra at all? 15:02:11 you can write in python (minor icky) vs yaml (noah flood scale vomiting) 15:02:18 pyinfra? 15:02:31 pyinfra.com 15:02:32 https://docs.saltproject.io/en/latest/ref/renderers/all/salt.renderers.pyobjects.html 15:02:33 Title: salt.renderers.pyobjects 15:03:12 ooo 15:03:25 the ops actions are python, instead of YAML 15:03:32 unfortunately for me the deal breaker is, hm 15:03:34 I think paramiko? 15:03:53 yeah paramiko is the SSH in python implementation. for whatever reason it doesn't play nice with macOS' ssh-agent 15:04:19 so either I have to have unencrypted keys, or type in the password every time I execute pyinfra 15:04:35 https://dpaste.org/7CY8S that's salt in pyobjects mode 15:04:36 Title: dpaste/7CY8S (Python) 15:04:49 yeah, it basically looks the same as pyinfra 15:04:55 i really like the idea of using zero mq as a message bus for salt 15:06:06 so does salt require python on the machines you're targeting? 15:07:01 obviously you need it on the control machine, but once it has a ssh connection, how is it doing fact collection, etc? 15:07:29 well, to backtrack a bit, can you even use pyobjects mode without a minion on the target machine(s)? 15:08:15 so i am using a minion on eacch system 15:08:18 each jail 15:08:23 i suppose that's pulling in python 15:08:46 the pyobjects is the config file on the master 15:09:16 have you tried without an agent, with salt-ssh? 15:10:20 pyobjects being on the master is clear, but IIRC Ansible copies the YAMLs you have to targets and then uses the target's Python interpreter to execute whatever it needs 15:10:34 and then PyInfra is totally different - it doesn't use Python on the target side at all 15:10:46 (you only need to have it on the master) 15:11:26 so I'm curious where Salt's pyobject lie in between the two when it comes to needing Python on targeted machines (or jails, same difference) 15:12:40 > Python is required on the remote system (unless using the -r option to send raw ssh commands). The python version requirement is the same as that for a standard Salt installation 15:12:52 (from https://docs.saltproject.io/en/latest/topics/ssh/index.html, so that answers that) 15:16:40 so, i want the agent and not just remote ssh calls 15:16:57 while i'm learning salt, just to see what it's doing 15:19:29 the only reason i might prefer salt over pyinfra is that i want to define policies and have them routinely enforced, i'm not looking for a multi-host execution engine 15:19:33 though that's a side effect of salt 15:23:27 yup, yup. that makes sense. I'm only using it to bootstrap new hosts, basically 15:24:15 on an unrelated topic, does anyone know why zroot has a mountpoint? 15:27:14 it's wild, the thinkpad t480 has no status lights :P 15:28:43 wait, it probably has a mountpoint for inheritance. let me test that 15:28:55 what command are you looking at? 15:29:22 i have zroot/ROOT/default on / 15:29:32 just `zroot` 15:29:41 zfs list, first item 15:29:58 says mountpoint is /zroot 15:30:40 and then zroot/ROOT is none, and zroot/ROOT/default is /, those are of course fine 15:31:00 I'm guessing the only reason for that mountpoint is inheritance, ie when you do a zfs create zroot/something you get it mounted to /zroot/something 15:32:13 I just did a `zfs set mountpoint=none zroot`, works fine, persists after reboot 15:32:48 after which doing `zfs create zroot/demo` creates a dataset also with a mountpoint=none which is exactly what I want by default, so good :-) 15:33:19 one more thing for Ansible/Salt to do when bootstraping freebsd hosts - setting mountpoint=none for zroot 16:35:11 domlaut[away]: so, i don't mind using cfgmgmt solutions to install packages, configure rc files, confirm settings, etc. but i don't let them touch storage. 17:50:36 Demosthenex: I see your point, and I *am* doing it as a 'raw' shell invocation -- so nothing like an Ansible ZFS module, if such a thing even exists 17:51:56 I have a playbook that's only meant to run once, and the only thing that does is `freebsd-update fetch install`, `pkg install python3`, and `reboot` 17:52:51 could just as easily be a ssh -c invocation instead -- and likely will be once I move to something other than Ansible 18:43:55 guys, i want to use freeBSD as a host operating system and run multiple Jails / VMs, is there any webUI which can help me manage them easier ? 19:11:13 antranigv: does Jailer mount jail ZFS datasets (zroot/jails/JAIL_NAME) under/inside the zroot/jails dataset, or completely standalone? my terminology may not be the best here, but does it set up all jail-releated datasets in a way where zroot/jails (ie. the parent of zroot/jails/JAIL_NAME) doesn't have, or doesn't have to have, a mountpoint? 19:12:14 in other words, if you have some jails and do `zfs set mountpoint=none zroot/jails`, does it say "cannot unmount '/usr/local/jails': pool or dataset is busy", or not? :-) 19:40:19 Is there any WebUI available for bhyve hypervisor ? 19:40:43 L3Fr0g: why? what's easier about a webui? 19:43:50 Demosthenex: Easy access to a guest's graphical console, conceivably. 19:43:59 It's what things like cockpit and virt-manager do 19:44:14 well virtual webby rdp could be a thing 19:45:53 or spice or vnc or whatever 20:38:11 can I partly chroot somehow, where I can keep my /usr/local/bin and whatever shell is already running, but otherwise use / of the new root? 20:40:51 ^ yes, that's just called "cd"-ing :facepalm: 22:02:56 domlaut that's true, we do mount zroot/jail to a location (Defaulted to /usr/local/jail). Do you think we shouldn't? I can't find a reason why not. 22:03:21 domlaut it's also good to save some values in /usr/local/jail/.some.hidden.files 22:04:57 domlaut and we do mount zroot/jails/JAIL0 to /usr/local/jails/JAIL0 :) 22:05:13 yeah, I've just done a setup where zroot/jails has no mountpoint, just because it doesn't need one (for my use cases). I figured anything that's not a child zfs dataset doesn't belong in it 22:05:34 obviously /usr/local/jail/.some.hidden.files changes that assumption. do you have any examples? 22:06:16 like what do people put in zroot/jails other than jails? 22:07:12 domlaut in our case we have .default_nettype, so you don't need to specify -nettype epair/bridge every time (the real flag is `-t eb` :D) 22:07:27 domlaut I assume one day I might add other things as well. 22:07:31 ah, so basically you keep various metadata 22:07:54 domlaut yeah. 22:07:55 yeah, that makes sense. cool, thanks! 22:08:26 domlaut thank you! these questions are good, it makes me *think* about things :D 22:09:47 no worries. I'm *very* new to FreeBSD, so mainly trying to figure out how the more experienced people have stuff set up and why 22:11:21 domlaut, everyone does there own thing, but I generally install bare minimum and then slap ports on the top with portmaster for management 22:11:31 git-lite for ports and src 22:12:05 ufs / gmirrored root with ZFS late for the rest of the system 22:12:17 domlaut yeah, Jailer is practically bleeding edge right now, but I hope soon we'll have stability. for now my main priority is writing tests, so I can develop with some ease in mind. 22:12:46 cool cool cool. I'm just replacing two old boxes, one running Ubuntu, the other CentOS 7, with FreeBSD 22:12:58 turns out the tests suite that comes with FreeBSD is pretty dope! 22:13:07 yeekes centos 7 I remember trying to get that running in bhyve it was a nightmare 22:13:20 domlaut hey if you need any help, this is the right place to ask :) 22:13:39 Heh, I generally like CentOS the most out of all Linuxes 22:14:08 ah I am a gentoo guy, I run a custom kernel I designed to be fully compatible with the virtio functionalities offered via bhyve 22:14:10 Debian packaging was always bizzarre to me 22:14:42 and then I figured I use a BSD (via macOS) and BSDs generally have this idea of userland that came with the system *doesn't* mix with user-installed userland 22:14:54 and on antranigv's notes; yep ask anything in here - we are a fairly friendly community :) 22:15:08 bsd is an OS linux is a kernel 22:15:41 yeah but there's no mainstream distro really not following the same model 22:15:41 daemon: There's Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. 22:15:48 daemon I used to be a Gentoo person as well. stickers, blog and everything. I miss Gentoo. but hell emerge was slow. 22:16:09 mason, I keep meaning to check that out, but its kind of the wrong way around for me; I want the linux kernel and the freebsd userland :| 22:16:19 daemon: Bucking all the trends, I will use Emacs viper-mode on Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. 22:16:45 Linux is not flexible enough to have a compat layer like the other Unices :D 22:16:48 Linux kernel for the drivers? 22:16:48 antranigv, eh emerge/portage is slow but once you have 'the system you like' it just kinda keeps working with no worries, plus I really like the community 22:16:53 yep 22:17:08 I like all of it really. 22:17:39 I think by the time you are in the realms of bsd, gentoo, emacs, kfreebsd etc you are already beyond hope and you know what you like :D 22:17:56 daemon the community IS awesome at Gentoo. I used to work on AraxOS, which was a Gentoo fork with Armenian localization and Armenian-ized things. we ended up shutting down the project and just upstreaming everything else. 22:18:13 yeah, no drivers issues with the servers I'm running (and hypervisors), and then my laptop is macOS so no issues there either (well, other than the usual stuff Apple likes to pull occasionally) 22:18:39 okay other than devmatch_blacklist=virtio_random.ko 22:18:46 antranigv, yep its really the communities that keep me to the OS's I use :) netbsd used to also have an awesome one, not checked up on it recently 22:19:53 domlaut I always have a both my FreeBSD and macOS laptops in me, in case Apple decides to do something stupid :D altho I use my macOS mostly for CEO work (docs and whatnot), while engineering on FreeBSD. 22:20:21 btw, does anyone run a different shell for root - and if so, how? 22:20:40 I type 'zsh' after I logged into (t)csh 22:20:41 daemon it weird that one of the best communities dies in the last 20 years. I'm talking about Unix Workstation people. 22:20:48 how about exec? 22:20:59 domlaut many of my friends use zsh. I like plain old /bin/sh 22:21:10 domlaut there's a shell named exec? 22:21:11 I like to make sure I can login to something and that is it 22:21:17 if I want to swap to zsh then I type zsh 22:21:19 :) 22:21:27 I meant putting exec in .cshrc for interactive sessions 22:21:45 I am aware and if you wish to do that you absolutely can 22:21:49 domlaut: That's how I do it. In case zsh fails, it falls back to csh so there isn't a lockout. 22:21:50 but personally no, I leave root alone 22:21:54 domlaut: I run bash as my root shell. 22:22:08 domlaut: chsh -s /usr/local/bin/bash root 22:22:10 from /usr/local/bin, or statically linked and cp'd into /bin? 22:22:16 plus how often do you even actually login as root? 22:22:22 domlaut: But, I also then set a password for the toor user and set his shell to /bin/sh 22:22:50 mason, psh not /usr/local/bin/dungeon ? :P 22:22:55 ok - I didn't want to change root's shell so I don't lock myself out, basically (thus the exec solution for interactive shells only) 22:23:18 is toor's only purpose recovering root if you f it up? 22:23:21 domlaut: That's why you should consider a password and shell for toor. 22:23:24 Yes. 22:23:27 domlaut, yes root|toor 22:23:37 oh, it comes by default! 22:23:44 For now. 22:23:58 Folks have talked about defenestrating it. Horrible lack of respect for tradition, but there it is. 22:24:18 I would love to know why linux defaults to www-data instead of www 22:24:22 for httpd's 22:24:31 domlaut: http://paste.purplehat.org/view/33a7a1b6 22:24:32 Title: tcsh/zsh if - PHO Paste 22:24:56 I add that to my root's ~/.cshrc file. 22:25:00 also why 'wheel' disappeared from modern systems 22:26:28 ek: and that's outside of if ($?prompt)? 22:27:53 'cause it looks indented like it came from the default if ($?prompt) ... if ($?tcsh) ... block 22:29:45 domlaut: Yes. Anywhere inside the "if ($?prompt) then \n endif" block will do. 22:30:45 yeah, just checking and looking at what that -l flag does for zsh 22:31:05 start a login shell 22:31:24 ^this 22:31:39 thought so 22:33:40 I've had zsh either fail to build/install correctly and other random stuff. Kinda bites you in the bum if you change the default shell and it fails to work. 22:33:52 At least this way, if it fails, you've got the default shell to work with. 22:34:27 I've done it as [ -x /usr/local/bin/zsh ] && exec /usr/local/bin/zsh inside that same block 22:35:26 but I see my $SHELL is wrong so I'll have to put that in too 22:37:23 though now that I know about toor I may rethink if it'd just be easier to not faff around with .cshrc at all 22:38:37 as for using root, I do use it basically for anything requiring root, incl dealing with jails 22:38:53 I have doas, but exclusively for `doas su -` 22:39:51 the reasoning being any other admin on the box can su to root and figure out what's been done to the machine recently that required root 22:41:53 (you could go through syslog, this way is just more convenient for any fire-fighting scenarios) 22:42:46 and the reason I have doas is just so no passwords need to be entered to switch to root - that's all 22:43:19 cat doas.conf being `permit nopass :wheel as root cmd su args -` 22:46:29 SHELL is just the shell from the passwd database. 22:47:57 there's bound to be scripts and tools making decisions off of that var (which config files to write to, what autocompletions to put where, etc) 22:48:36 that being said, not really realistic I'd be running them under root - just system software 22:49:02 probably fine if it stays as is 23:11:08 daemon: wheel disappeared from Debian-family systems only