Ope. Time to move to Linux for all tile cool new features social.treehouse.systems/@astraleureka/115844218496725551

s/tile/the

Honestly a fine enough idea if it didn't take the form of "surprise! There's a network service you won't notice because your usual tools don't list it and PID 1 listens on the socket so you don't even have a

suspicious process to investigate or google

... hmm. rc.conf option?

zip: not a surprise that systemd would do something that wacky

I could do worse

has the package kitty been removed? this is a fresh install of freebsd and I have got hyprland up and working but the package kitty is non existent

i googled quite a bit to see what's happened and i couldn't find anything about this

seems like it failed to build on 15.0 portsfallout.com/fallout?port=x11%2Fkitty%24

that must be the case i was just looking at fallout

there was a commit yesterday that should fix it, but no idea when it will be in the repos cgit.freebsd.org/ports/commit/?id=f…9953d38cc0aaf90db71c50442156358ced2

thank you <3

pkg: sqlite error while executing INSERT OR REPLACE INTO packages (origin, name, version, comment, desc, arch, maintainer, www, prefix, pkgsize, flatsize, licenselogic, cksum, path, manifestdigest, olddigest, vital)VALUES (?1, ?2, ?3, ?4, ?5, ?6, ?7, ?8, ?9, ?10, ?11, ?12, ?13, ?14, ?15, ?16, ?17) in file update.c:175: not an error

rtprio: Sounds like desc is a reserved keyword.

well, that's up to whoever was hacking on pkg

also the irony of pkg: error ... ... not an error

rtprio: it's harmless

If Chimera Linux can try to port the BSD userland to Linux perhaps it's time to port systemd to BSD.

Actually that sounds like something you can start as a joke and then be stuck running for two decades

Getting the error as well, also for packages.path. Others reporting the same at freebsd/pkg #2584

It's not harmless, it's preventing installation of packages into a new jail

zip: why would you want to port that unportable and badly designed piece of software? I give them that they implemented some good ideas like proper service management, but rewriting the good parts in a good designed and portable way without all thoses interdependencies should also be easier than to port it, especially as parts are already there, like in the form of the s6 tools suite

As a joke

fortunately they decided to write it in the most unportable way they could find

Which thankfully makes it a high effort joke and not something you could end up building and being expected to maintain

s6 seems like the sort of thing you could add to rc services as a flag tbh

well, someone made the experiment of replacing init completely with s6 tools static.bultmann.eu/s6-talk

yop

well

Nice trololololol zip

part of me suspects that for a lot of use cases, the service monitoring loop doesn't need to be any tighter than having an alert to the sysadmin during working hours

barely trolling, more goofing :P

I think it's a valid point that you gotta walk carefully without it becoming heated.

I wonder if there's stats out there for how often httpd, nginx, sshd etc actually crash on their own

I'll hate systemd all day but I'm quite open that my main reason is mostly that I learned all this shit before systemd existed and I hate that it's new and different

I like how things work today and I'm not a systemd fan either but at the same time, I can see why you might want to implement something more "modern"

it feels nondiscoverable and it feels like I have to go and look things up every time I interact with it. Part of me also recoiled at freebsd's rc system for feeling too much like an old fashioned in-order rc script and for `servicename_enable="YES"` feeling a little bit magic... but I've very much warmed to it

no small part of that is that `man rc.conf` and `less /etc/rc.subr` are most of the tools I need to work out what something is doing or how to do something, including making new services

I agree. systemd feels like a black box you can't penetrate where as BSD is generally much more transparent

I don't really know or understand systemd at all, and I've learned it twice already.

o0x1eef: according to the systemd devs, systemd is super simple. I mean, I've gotten used to systemd here at work over the years. But I've yet to find the simplicity of it :D

Any system I learn and then still have not learned is one I'm inclined to dislike

you just need to place your socket/timer/service files in the right place, fill the content with WantedBy,RequiredBy,NicetoHaveBy statements and it just works™. At least to the devs

and of course it's quite nice to know (or at least believe) that reviewing `{/usr/local,}/etc/rc.conf{,.d/*}` and `/boot/loader.conf`are going to give you a very solid idea of what a system is going to load and start

without being nix

it's a clusterfuck, but given who wrote it, it's no surprise.

that was in regards to systemd, not rc

I don't have the words except that it sounds like the Ruby on Rails of init(8) systems (not a compliment...)

I'm also half-sympathetic to building binary logs but again, it's a matter of learning the incantation for reading them

at least put `/var/log/README` in place with a line or two that says "you want to run `journalctl -xu <service>`" or whatever

zip: i actually like journalctl. but the amount logging data on a modern linux desktop system (fedora in my case) is insane

I think I'd hate it about 50% less if I found the directories where things were configured and it was a short step from that to the manpage I need to read

but that's not journalctl's fault

maybe that'll be my first debian package, eh

just something that dumps a bunch of `README` files all over the filesystem so that sysadmins like me who are likely to try to figure out how a thing is configured with `find /etc -name "*service*"` get pointed to the right manpage

"hi, you've reached `/var/log`. Run `man journalctl` for more information"

zip: systemd is just one of the absurd things common in modern day Linux ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

my filesystem is littered with notes to myself

`jsconfig.json` says `"comment": "You can have this file and have Command-T searches or you can delete it and have 50% of intellisense"` haha

clearly, the last time I said "it's fucking annoying that intellisense doesn't work" I spent a couple hours discovering this

To be fair, Linux itself is just a kernel, and the init system is whatever you choose. That's the theory. In practical terms it doesn't work quite like that. I don't think debian or ubuntu provided options. It's systemd or nothing.

zip: my huge amount of notes is in ~/Notes and synced with nextcloud everywhere. i'm too old to remember stuff.

o0x1eef: i think there are only about two distros without systemd left.

o0x1eef: gnome without systemd is also nearly impossible

yup. that's why I've ended up on Void for the tinkering system, although I'd probably use Fedora if I wanted a Just Works™ laptop and to never attempt to run any services

Void / runit is nice.

zip: i actually run plenty of service in my user session with systemctl --user

zip: i find that rather handy

it's pretty good. mostly discoverable, helpful to understand service control directories, otherwise pretty nice

and again discoverable, the bits that run before services boot and for shutdown are in nice shell scripts

what runit doesn't give you is dependency management better than seeing if it starts, sleeping one second, and trying again in a loop

zip: the thing about shell scripts on linux is, they are mostly written for bash, which even today seems quite buggy to me

I have a runit service directory in my homedir for that and it's mostly okay because most of the services don't have dependencies. What's annoying is I've not worked out what the dependency is between the thing that tells me what music is playing and something in the system services such that if I auto-login it loads juuuust fast enough to break

well, maybe it's not the best idea to have my ridiculous hand-crafted artisinal swaywm-on-runit setup in the first place

systemd is, unfortunately, the compromise you have to make for the system mostly "just working" most of the time

running through the process of building a modern desktop without Gnome or KDE has been a lesson in how DBus _also_ has a bunch of logic for service activation, how it's mandatory now, how you need seat management to make sure it's up and running before your shell, how to tell it about environment variables otherwise set after it starts (such as the X or wayland display...) and so on

and then you'll want your desktop portals so flatpak works, and a secrets management service is nice, oh, and remember that native clipboards are just a channel between two applications so you want a third one that sits in the background and whose entire job is to sit in the middle so you can close the first application and still paste whatever it was you copied

well, the thing about shell scripts is, that they are buggy if they are more than one simple line

What's the way to install freebsd in a chroot (host machine: Arch linux)

and of course if your wifi configuration is more complicated than simply starting up and connecting to a known network you probably want NetworkManager, and so on

I find myself constantly torn between understanding why the complexity exists and not having any constructive suggestions for improving it, and yearning for the good old (and frankly, FreeBSD-shaped) days

avid: I don't think arch linux provides some freebsd ABI, maybe you have some luck to compile the freebsd userland for arch linux

No I meant only the chroot installation not for usage as a container

what are you trying to achieve?

i.e: installing an OS the arch way

aka as rootfs installation

mount /dev/sda1 /mnt; sudo tar xvf freebsd-rootfs /mnt

I'm trying to achieve something like this

well, that bit doesn't really need the chroot

Use the VM images and mdconfig(8) with mount

and I'm assuming here you're trying to do this on ZFS because otherwise you won't be able to both write it from linux and boot it from FreeBSD anyway

does freebsd offer official torrents?

but yeah, use a VM image

I found 3rd party foss torrents

if you would like to use FreeBSD and also have it access your linux filesystem, that's what plan9 filesystem is for

If you do use third party make sure to download the checksum files and to confirm. But otherwise, no

No does not provide official torrents AFAIK but a freebsd dev maintains their own.

which option should I go with? zfs.qcow zfs.raw zfs ?

raw

depends what you're trying to do

you want raw for it to work with mdconfig

oh, right, yeah

but this does sound like a "why are you trying to do that" kinda problem

if you want freebsd on bare metal hardware, install it from the USB stick installer

if you want to dual boot FreeBSD and Linux, probably, don't

or at least, don't try to do it on the same hard drive

It may be doable, but not without substantial pain

I find installing the arch way very educational

I want to learn the exact boot process for bsd

i.e what would be the equivalent to vmlinuz and initrd.img

FreeBSD has its own ways

If you wish to learn the dark arts it is a fine place to start, but if you wish to try out FreeBSD and see what it's like, do it in a VM or install it on a separate hard drive

does it support uki?

FreeBSD doesn't really have init ramdisks

nor do we have kexec

The man pages describe the boot process, and the handbook as well.

we _do_ have running the shutdown script, switching root, and then booting (with your original init, I believe) from that new root

Yup. Multistage bootloader off a msdosfs partition. Written in lua, I believe, although there's an older forth version too. That'll load up the kernel and any modules, set the command line options (of which there are approximately five) and then kick off the kernel.

It's not like linux where you have a million command line flags. The flags are basically "use the serial terminal as the console" and "boot in single user mode"

other things can be set with `/boot/loader.conf` such as which modules to start with and kernel environment variables

zfs on dmcrypt supported?

or is dmcrypt linux thing

I think there's some magic for zfs boot environments

dmcrypt is a linux thing

we have GELI and zfs native

and GEOM but don't

but a lot of neat boot stuff from linux doesn't exist, but also, it doesn't hurt as much that it doesn't exist. Mostly.

man loader, loader.conf, init, rc.d - etc, unlike Linux, all this stuff is plainly documented as part of the OS distribution.

I'm not even sure we can do FDE

and if you want the TPM involved you'll be writing it yourself

we might be able to do GELI encrypted root? If we do I bet the bootloader is prompting and then injecting the key into the kernel

is there a "gentoo" equivalent to bsd? where everything is source compiled?

otherwise you can encrypt some of your zfs partitions and then late-mount them, but again you're probably hand-writing anything that kicks off services that rely on them being mounted... or at least, that's how it looked last I looked

yes, it's BSD

avid: You can compile everything if you want to

ofc, but there a system for source compilation or is it LFS style

Gentoo's ports is modelled on BSD ports

yup, ports

or if you want to build the whole thing you can technically do it with port but really everyone uses poudriere

if you're curious, Absolute FreeBSD is a great book and it's how I got started. Do get a recent edition.

Ya I build my own ports with poudriere

but I wouldn't suggest coming into FreeBSD expecting it to be a drop-in replacement for a linux desktop

I hear that's a lot better for 15, but as a tool I'd say FreeBSD is what I'll reach for if I want a server

I wouldn't use FreeBSD on the desktop either (I use OpenBSD on that front).

I use it on desktop

My current view is: FreeBSD for servers, Void for linux Tinkering™, Fedora for "this is my main computer and I just want a working web browser and Steam"

well, I do want to try FreeBSD on desktop

as a rule I don't put files or my browser's cookie jar on a non-encrypted filesystem

and I'll want to run sway, so...

I expect getting myself to a FreeBSD desktop will be a A Journey

IMO FreeBSD is not optimized for the desktop, especially when it comes to security, and relative to the other options like OpenBSD.

You can use zfs encryption on your $HOME

I think there's maybe even pam modules to make that less painful?

which is probably better on desktop where you're using a password, and very annoying for ssh

I do need to remember that while it's neat to be super sekrit squirrel and have the best possible setup, tm, my real threat model is having my laptop nicked on a train and someone having a go at ordering things on ebay

which, as a side note, is why you want biometrics on your phone and a PIN on your banking app, because your threat model there is either (a) someone surfs your PIN, pinches your phone, unlocks it, possibly has a go at your online accounts or (b) someone mugs you and then holds your phone up to your face to get into your banking app

That's a double edged sword. I'm not in favor of it. But maybe more suitable for #freebsd-social

ah, good idea

I wasn't in there

well. I'm ADHD'ing my way out of doing my job anyway so I shall close IRC

rtj :D

zip thanks for the chat

dog -- the best password manager

I'm more than happy to refine my view on this, being right is a process, not my default state, after all :)

unix dog and I say good morning. hope that everbody has a good day.

dog is completely invincible to post-quantum cryptoanalysis

my mum did at some point apologetically tell me she has a password book. I told her it's great security: she's a retiree, not someone in an office that someone might break into, and having a different password for each service stored in a way that works for her is far better than using the same password or something that's hard to operate or might break

yeah realistically is there any research on how many accounts are broken into vs how many are lost forever because a person loses password?

well, given password recovery via email I suspect a good appproximation for that is how often that happens to email accounts

there's also the matter of people forgetting they have an account and creating five more on the same service

the upside of using an email address as an account identifier is that it doesn't happen, but then the downside is that you can't change your email address as easily...

huh. pkg is saying it has errors updating the sqlitedb for "packages.path" :-/ How screwed am I...

wavefunction: your system is fine, it's an issue with the repository

see PR 292214

freebsd/pkg #2575 <- probably the same issue

it happens

Oh. Well then. Thanks ivy & mzar

Requiring people to "remember" a password is a recipe for all the problems we propose to solve

ah, came here to see if anyone had this pkg bug and the answer is right here. thanks.

markmcb: speak of the daemon, that's what I'm here for too.

markmcb: what's the solution?

dgriffi: I don't think there is one yet. Seems to be a wait and see situation.

markmcb: ah... you said "answer", not "solution".

Any idea what's going on?

It must have started since yesterday afternoon US Pacific time. I made a fresh install of 15 then.

that github link has a bit of info, but the root cause isn't clear. yeah, same for me, i just noticed it today for the first time.

on my side, there's no github reference in the error messages.

I did get this: pkg: Failed to fetch pkg.FreeBSD.org/FreeBSD:15:amd64/qu…l/Hashed/git-2.51.0~42542afbdd.pkg: Not found

I thought it was my local mirror barfing

I meant from mzar earlier in this channel, here it is again: freebsd/pkg #2575

Three weeks???

I've done updates on 14.x machines in the past three weeks without issue.

I posted a comment mentioning my recent install of 15 and doing a pkg update just now on a 14.3 box (no problems).

The answer is "wait for maintainers to fix it." The FreeBSD package builders seem to not be building the pkg dataset with the correct values emitted for 15

bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=292214 <-

last update was around 2 hours ago

Is anyone from the postmaster team available who can send me a private message?