best option to query how many pages in and pages out swap has done recently? vmstat # outputs a ton of info not just paging, vmstat -s outputs lots of paging info but totals, not recent

and if vmstat is my best option, what's the best way to smooth the paging pi po values? second by second sucks because it's erratic. would i run vmstat 60 to get the total per minute then divide pi and po by 60 to get the secondly avg?

oh it looks like vmstat 60 does its own smoothing!

what does -w / wait do? i read the man page entry for it a few times but i don't get it

See the EXAMPLES section.

oh i had them mixed up, now i get it ty!

is there no way to limit the output to just the 'page' info, or more specifically just pi/po ?

Maybe with the --libxo option?

ya but that doesn't let me filter the output, just gives me json output i can then filter myself

which i'll do if i have to i was jc

btw the vmstat first output is since machine boot up i guess? there a way to skip that?

is there a way i can see if my disk io is clogged?

gstat

ty zi! do you know what %busy means? does it mean that 100% is when disk io is maxed out and less than that means it has more io capacity?

man gstat?

nothing for "busy"

ok found some info on a webpage

damn i wish gstat supported libxo output

it's a great util

Koston I haven't in much detail, the logs are pretty sparse: gist.github.com/Davis-A/1eddd07d8ca84b7ce8ae979b230ec11f

kerneldove: there is a thread on dev-commits-src-all@ about your unbound problem: lists.freebsd.org/archives/dev-comm…ts-src-all/2025-October/061576.html

thx for DISTDIR fixes

ivy where in that page does it talk about the issue i had? or was it in response to what i brought up or? i searched page for SNDBUF and SOCKOPT but didn't get matches

lists.freebsd.org/archives/dev-comm…ts-src-all/2025-October/061591.html oh there we go!

right, i linked the first message in the thread, jlduran's reply mentions your issue

"it's not just you, a user on IRC also reported this issue on a system

with 256GB memory. i would be inclined to add so-sndbuf: 0 to the

default configuration, but i haven't looked at the actual problem

here in detail (i don't use local_unbound myself)." fwiw, i pkg install unbound, not local_unbound

i kept the leaf threads open, lists.freebsd.org/archives/dev-comm…ts-src-all/2025-October/061613.html and lists.freebsd.org/archives/dev-comm…ts-src-all/2025-October/061612.html

if more info is requested i'll provide it or help out where i can

sorry i didn'topen a pr, i've just been burned so many times by so many software projects where i open really nice bug reports that i put a lot of time into and nothing ever happens that i'm nihilistic

you're helping to fix me tho so ty

Is anyone daily driving BSD?

On PC or laptop?

for desktop? not currently, i have in the past. assuming you mean FreeBSD

I am

innk i use fbsd daily on desktop and server

have for like 5 years now

i need recent swap paging info. is there no way to make vmstat not output stats since last reboot for the first output? i've read over the man page and don't see a way

kerneldove: vmstat 1 2 | tail -1 ?

this makes me wonder:

procs memory page disks faults cpu

r b w avm fre flt re pi po fr sr ada0 ada1 in sy cs us sy id

0 0 0 4.6T 3.6G 1.6k 5 1 0 1.8k 4.6k 0 0 273 22k 11k 1 7 91

is it reporting free virtual address space as avm? i do not have 4.6TB of memory, so this doesn't seem accurate

that seems to work, ty, but it's pretty convoluted to not be able to just pass an option and not get the 'since reboot' data

ah, avm is "mapped virtual memory"

kerneldove: vmstat reports counter data, so it has to run at least twice if you want real-time data

weirdly the output with the tail part looks diff than when the tail part isn't on there. without tail, stuff like avm has G suffix, with tail, avm looks to be in bytes

like wtf

kerneldove: refer to the description of -h in vmstat(1)

but why can't it do that internally and suppress the 'since reboot' part

well, you're welcome to add a flag to do that, although i'm not sure i really see the utility

s/vmstat(1)/vmstat(8)

but in general, the answer to "why doesn't it do X?" is that you didn't submit a patch to make it do X yet :-)

historical reasons:)

because i'm trying to parse json output of, say, last 60 seconds rather than since reboot, for system monitoring. so i gotta pass -c 2 and ignore first row

it's wtf, but allwinner h3 r*ALSO* boots with uboot at 128k, not 8k as everyone but 1 says

doh i fingered the red colodcode off

IMO, even for human interface the counter value "since boot" is useless, so it has to be artefact from initial implementation and noone cared to drop it...

if i would have knew this before, i would have went direct gpt eh

tsoome_, ya it would be great if there was an -o(ption) to suppress the 'since reboot' data. then it atleast preserves historical behavior

tsoome_, do you know what -w wait does? obviously it throttles readings for # seconds, but how does it affect the values? i've tested and it doesn't sum the values up. it seems more like it kinda averages/smoothes them over the period of time?

ok well, if you build your statistics collector by using absolute values (and calculating difference from last run), then vmstat 1 1 would make sense...

that doesn't really make sense in context of pi po data

-w and -c are same as wait and count arguments.

ya i know

will -w average 5 seconds of pi/po data?

it doesn't sum it i know that

ivy, there is no such thing as "free virtual memory"

Koston: i disagree, there is a limit to the size of virtual memory, so used (mapped) virtual memory subtracted from total vm size would be free virtual memory :-)

kerneldove its just counter value during 5 seconds.

tsoome_, not of pi po it isn't

ivy, well technically you're correct, but that's hardly meaningful on any 64bit architecture

otherwise they'd continually grow or smth

ivy, and even then it would only apply per process

Koston: it somewhat is, since no 64-bit architecture (that i'm aware of) actually supports a 64-bit virtual address space. i think at least on amd64, typical limits are 48 bits or 52 bits, depending on how new the hardware is. although in practice, yes, this isn't something most people run into

tsoome_, with a box that's using swap and hence has some pi/po action, run 2 cmds: vmstat 1, and vmstat -w 15, and you'll see what i mean

ivy: any process that gets even close to exhausting the limit is most likely defective anyway

Koston: are you sure? mmap() can use a lot of VM and disk arrays are pretty big nowadays. 48 bits is only 256TB

hence the "most likely"

but I guess it also depends what you consider defective. many scripting languages seem to make a habit of reserving insane amounts of VM with little beyond hello world

(memory overcommit was a mistake)

sorry to fanboy but rust ftw, every time

i've done c and a bunch of other langs. rust ftw every time

rust is very attractive on paper, but in practice I haven't yet decided if its complexity is worth it

the learning curve is steep, but it pays dividends for the investment. thing of the other things it eases as a smoothing function over the lang complexity. the cargo/crates ecosystem is awesome, and the maintainability it adds to code is insane. to say nothing of the bug elimination which is usually the first thing ppl praise

i like the idea of rust but i am extremely dubious about cargo. i realise you don't *have* to use cargo, but...

why?

kerneldove: what do you mean by "maintainability" ?

to be able to jump into code i wrote a year ago, make some mods, and if it compiles it's usually correct, makes it SO much easier to maintain code over time than any other lang i've used

...but you said you've used C

yea

which is ISO standardised

kerneldove: what we've learned from npm is that having a bunch of tiny packages such that every project depends of hundreds of independent packages is a terrible way to build software, especially when it relies on some central infrastructure to distribute them (see: Ruby Central)

rust has and is changing at breakneck pace compared to C

nah not anymore

i'm finally tracking -stable as of a year ago, first time since i started using it over 5 years ago

was using -nightly since starting up till then

ivy well you can run your own crates server so you don't /need/ to rely on crates.io. and the bunch of tiny code made by others issue is resolved by it being a more correct, rigorous lang. npm i s aprob because it's js

and actually lots of tiny crates is a good thing for fast compiles

kerneldove: "running your own creates server" doesn't really fix everything if everyone assumes you will be using crates. compare this to how C and C++ libraries usually work: they're typically larger and more self-contained

ivy: nowadays there are mechanisms in place to mitigate biggest problems with centralised mound of packages, namely forced versioning and checksumming. but tracking down bugs in a dependency hell is still hell.

s/creates/crates

ya i mean i'm with you on crates.io centralization, but in practice, using rust including with its crates ecosystem, is so f'ing nice i'll never go back to anything else

i make better, faster, less buggy code, that's more maintainable, than any other lang/ecosystem i've ever used

i don't doubt it's nice to use or they wouldn't have designed it this way. my concern is the less obvious implications of that

i FEEL better as a dev, the anxiety of dev and bugs is mostly melted away. i actually enjoy dev again

i used to have to beat off all the time to release stress and now i dont

there are also big benefits to the approach, especially from portability point of view. a lot of things related to differences between bsd, gnu, osx etc. can be outsourced to upstream with significant save in effort

well like i said, i'm with you on the centralization

having everyone rely on crates is the same problem as having everyone rely on Github (Go) or Ruby Central (npm) or Microsoft (vcpkg)... sure, it's nice to use, but is this really how we want to build software?

well again, you don't have to. so if you do, you're choosing to, not forced

you are forced if you can't use any third-party code because everyone who writes code assumes you're using crates

how would it be different with say c?

how do you share c code

yes, you are not *literally* forced to do this, but the amount of available third-party libraries is pretty important when choosing a language

and rust being so wickedly complex comes with an implicit benefit of it being used mostly by rather intelligent people with a lot of attention to detail, so the packages overall are quite high quality and well maintained

kerneldove: i put it on my website and people can download it

you can do same with rust

you're missing my point

help me understand pls

i am aware you are not *literally forced* to use crates

you mean the culture of rust devs is to just shit it onto crates.io?

my point is that if all the third-party libraries assume you are using crates, and depend on crates, you are *practically* forced to interact with that ecosystem

like, in C++ we have Boost. you can download and use Boost from boost.org, and vendor it if you like, and it's completely self-contained. what would Boost for Rust look like?

well if you dl 3rd party c (from webpage), why can't you just dl 3rd party rust? (from crates.io) in both cases you dl to vendor it locally, then never have to again

hmm

i think you can vendor dl a whole crate and its tree of deps

would that be a solution for you? i can check

yes, and now you're forced to interact with the crates ecosystem, and you have to deal with all the problems caused by centralised infrastructure

do you see what i mean? you can't just say "you don't have to use crates" when the answer to any practical questions about not using crates is "just use crates"

imho it would be foolish anyway, then you'd only get the problems and none of the benefits

so crates are inseparable from Rust itself, as a language

i just don't see how it's a prob. if it became a prob, rust devs would create alternative avenues

ivy: that's untrue, C stdlib isn't inseparable from the language either

not really true, i have private local code that doesn't use any crates.io, only my private crates

and Rust stdlib isn't a crate

Koston: ? you don't have to download or vendor the C standard library, it comes with the compiler

Koston: obviously i'm not talking about things which are part of the Rust stdlib

core/std come with compiler too

(although i understand Go are moving towards downloading the Go standard library from github.com, which seems terrible, but i don't think Rust is doing that)

honestly I really think some people are trying to create unnecessary languages out of their own agenda

if you're talking about rust, it was needed and no equivalent existed or exists

"we need to do something, this is something, therefore we must do this"

i use rust to make web apps, cli tools, server daemons, everything. 1 lang, everything

nah it solves real world problems

rust and go are fine per se. but to divide the devs based on things that people could easily circumvent is an extra cost.

i'm not telling you not to use rust, if you want to use rust, use rust

and it does a quite good job

ya ofc i don't take it that way

but i am extremely dubious about importing Rust into FreeBSD for example, and crates are the sole reason for that. the language itself actually seems quite nice

ya i can see that. even i wouldn't want freebsd dependent on a centralized service. what if fbsd maintained its own crate mirror for any crate used in rust-in-base?

have you guys ever tried nodejs and php? out my very personal opinions they don't do much benefits in either scenarios

ya i've used both

and typescript

nightmares comparatively

and the most obvious one to get my point from is the instance of c#

ivy: it's a problem to be solved for the ports system. for kernel Rust support, obviously crates are not involved.

and like it or not, centralised packaging is a thing for most modern languages these days

Koston, but what about a middleground where fbsd maintains a crate mirror for any crates used in rust-in-base?

I fully expect the would

*they

i think that would be really nice

that's what Ports does already with all software

ya

so adding a crates.freebsd.org could follow the same spirit

Koston: there is a bunch of source code in src outside of ports and kernel, you know

and we wouldn't add crates.freebsd.org, we'd vendor the code

rust in base though, I don't like the idea much and definitely not the idea of it supporting any crate business

k

you need to be able to build src without any external dependencies, vendoring is the only way to do that

well obv i'd love rust in base but it's not my call. rust to me is the legit successor to C, whereas c++ failed to become that

i'm not opposed to vendoring a few Rust packages, we do plenty of that for C/C++ right now, but is we need to vendor 200 packages to build one library that's going to be a nightmare to manage

kerneldove: why c++ failed to do that?

because rust is better and more popular and far younger

but functionally?

if it didn't fail to do that rust wouldn't have had a vacuum to fill, but it did

i am dubious that Rust is "more popular"

maybe more popular in stack overflow surveys, but in actual software that is shipping today?

ivy: it's a tricky problem indeed. but if you think about it from the rust language devs perspective, if they didn't centralise the infrastructure then *they* would have portability as the "nightmare to manage"

although, i also don't think we should pick languages based on what's "more popular"; if rust is better than C++ we should switch based on technical merit

c++ suffers from the same problem as c, putting too much mental load on the dev. humans are error prone. putting the rigor into compiler and code makes it easier for the dev to not fuck up

that's my point, it's more popular /because/ it's better on technical merit

I still kind of consider rust to be under the "amateur" and "experimental" categories despite recent popularity

ivy: but then we'd be all writing haskell or lisp

recent btw

ivy: just that, at least I'm far too stupid for either of those

vs 50 years of C, sure, but it's about a decade old now from 1.0

kerneldove: but it's not more popular. how many video games written in Rust shipped in 2025 compared to video games written in C++? what about productivity applications? what % of ports applications are written in Rust?

black: me too tbh, but it is interesting

how much of Linux is written in Rust? Windows? macOS? FreeBSD?

rust is only popular among rust developers, he he

and how much of that code was created before rust existed? compare new projects and i'll bet rust is more popular than c++

it is not, lol

kerneldove: sure, and if we could simply throw out all existing code, a lot of things would be much easier. meanwhile, in the real world...

C++ is overwhelmingly more popular

if there is ever a language beyond the machine code, I want it to give me as much detail as possible in plain text.

only from inertia, if it is

you wouldn't believe how popular even Java still is today

btw, i would bet money that more lines of C++ will be written today than lines of Rust

just because some morons decided a few decades ago that Java should now be taught in unis as primary first language

so my point, from many years of dev in many langs, is rust is not only better than all alternatives, but so much better than i actually love dev again after decades of hating it, and it will swallow the world

you can only argue that Rust is "more popular" if you just aren't familiar with how embedded C++ is in literally everything

kerneldove: rust devs have been making that same argument for nearly a decade now btw

ok so inertia, not technical merit

you can't say that omitting keywords and typedefs like python is a legitimate "good feature"

ya and it's happening all the time. this isn't wayland

'any day now'

by the point c++ got out I think in the sphere of programming languages the peak was already reached

absurd

literature is the basis for any human language. at least virtualbox is a very nice example of things written in c++

well the peak being functional programming, but vast majority of devs aren't smart enough for it

kerneldove: when you say you "love dev again", you're talking here about personal projects, right? let's say there may be concerns for larger projects which are different from people's personal projects

I'm pretty sure rust is also too complex for most people to learn properly

well i have personal projects that are upwards of 50k LoC, so not toys

and i'm 1 dev and i can manage it just fine

multiple of them

yes, but when you are 1 dev, you do not have issues which apply to a project with 400 devs

kerneldove: the reason *why* you can manage it fine is because you're 1 dev

i have problem with merely running the rust

^^

nah it's because rust is great

heh

let alone write it

it's a power multiplier like AI

I'm going to play super mario now, have fun ;)

ever heard of them, java, rust, qt

i understand the pushback, but you'll eventually be convinced or age out and be replaced by someone who is convinced. that's not because of hype, but because of technical superiority

same with freebsd and any other non-rust code

I think in Gosling's days it was the dusk of "creating additional syntax for a new programming language" already

kerneldove: by the time i'm "aged out" there will be 37 more languages which are newer and better than rust

Java did have its own merit at least because Sun played an important part in the development of personal computers

but will they be better enough to supplant the inertia rust has already built up by then? if so then i'll switch too, but i doubt it

i like Rust (the language), i would like to see more of it, but people like you are simplying trying to deny reality when it comes to practical adoption

no u

i'll try to get a job working on large rust codebases and teams then see what i can comment about that

btw, why are we talking about C/C++ when all new code nowadays in written in Ada, a language which is objectively superior to C/C++ on techincal merit?

imo c/c++ was already the peak... anything after that was "re-inventing the wheel" ivy

i never understood how languages are, sometimes it feels like fashion thing

:/

it had its merit in being the first, and in the code base of various OS kernels

why c didn't die out if it was so bad?

or if was too big to fail?

no alternatives that were better enough

black: i like C++ and also hate it. it has many advantage that Rust also does, but because of its history and the requirement for C compatibility, it can be extremely confusing to work with sometimes

guarantee you rust will essentially kill C if it hasn't already (going off new proj's being started)

and now they are... how and why?

ketas: yeah I try not to understand it as "fashion"

because now you can afford 1g for rust

?

like, i am fully on board with rewriting as much of FreeBSD as we can in C++ (i've written a bunch of C++ code in base) and if we adopt Rust, i'll argue for writing new code in Rust

since Rust seems like basically, C++ but done without the weird historical bits

unsure how much of that 1g is compiler and how much the "libs"

but i am still concerned about that crates crap

why are they bad?

they are modules for rust

or libs should we say

surely lib per se isn't bad?

Rust has memory safety and a relatively easy to use build and package system

ease of use is sometimes at conflict with greater control over what you do

it's nice to have something that's easy but NOT any easier.

Rust has poor generic programming and fairly spectacularly trait syntax

in what sense is the C and C++ build and package system "easy"?

On FreeBSD hundreds or port maintainers have to fight with umpteen underlying build systems to coerce them into a whole that works sorta OK

kind of fun yeah

ketas: please read scrollabck where i went into detail on my concerns about crates, no reason to repeat all that

hmm unsure where to even start reading

i tried in some parts

there's dev part of things, admin part, and user part

imo best place to start is doc.rust-lang.org/book

then write some code, see what the hubub is about

##rust is really helpful too

i hope that wasn't to me

:p

nvm :)

ivy: your concerns towards embedding centralised package management in programming languages are largely valid from OS point of view and shared by many others, but imho ultimately they're mostly just semantics issues

because i write shell, if it's not enough i write perl, if that's not doing it i write that part in c, if it doesn't run any of this, it probably runs js

ivy: I see much bigger challenge with rust itself as a language vs. projects with hundreds of contributors spanning over decades of effort. the language is absolutely not at all like C/C++ in many crucial ways

Koston: my response to "this is just semantics" is that "semantics" means "meaning", and nothing could be more important than the actual meaning of our words

sometimes people have written libs in other languages, then i need to endure this and build a bridge eh

i haven't much thought about all of this at all

you know the whole "cs" thing

vmstat's --libxo output kinda sucks. it doesn't line delimit each display so i can't run it once and parse each output

so instead i gotta loop over running it over and over lol wtf

if i give it -c 5, there should be 5 json wads (lines) outputted but instead it outputs the 5 wads on 1 line

anyone know a fix?

uptime/w xo is broken btw

huh?

unless it's intended

what is "uptime/w"?

w(1)

tells

"uptime-human": " 4:57,",

why the padding?

that's a bug, please file a PR

:)

ivy: by semantics in this case I mean issues around handling of code, not the code itself

for the ports collection anyway

for the base OS, such concerns are more just FUD at this point. even linux dweebs haven't yet done anything meaningful with rust and there's nothing interesting beyond the language itself from an OS point of view that I'm aware of

bug file but

filed

spmzt: because bcmp was deprecated 40 years ago

otherwise, it's fine, but you may perhaps be running into issues with padding

since sockaddr_storage is usually larger than the relevent data it contains

so what should I use instead? in kernel there are a lot of bcmp comparison between sockaddr structs

even when using ss_len?

add a printf() showing the ss_len and make sure it matches what you expect for the af

depending on the context, ss_len could be the size of the stuct itself, which is wrong if you intend to pass it to bcmp/memcpy

or use a breakpoint in the debugger ;)

s/memcpy/memcmp

I see people converting sockaddr_storage to sockaddr_in[6] and using bcmp for comparison. I can't see why they don't check their ss_family to be equal and then directly compare them instead of converting to sockaddr_in[6]

Koston: but basically no one does this because having to attach a serial debug console is way more annoying than just adding printf

ivy: why it's wrong if their family matches?

spmzt: are you asking about a bug you're running into in code you are writing, or are you asking why existing code works in a particular way?

I'm in the middle of writing a network driver (geneve protocol) and I don't know which approach should I use.

ivy: and as we can see from linux, it's entirely possible for that excuse to transform into "I've invested too much into my printf() debug system to bother with a debugger"

Koston: cool story

it's a miserable story

ketas can you confirm that libxo works counterintuitively with vmstat and -c #? vmstat -c 5 --libxo=json. notice it doesn't output per line, but instead outputs all to 1 line, making parsing harder

spmzt: this really depends on the context, like if you just copyin()d a sockaddr_storage from userland, you can't assume ss_len is set to anything sensible

I know it's better to use sockaddr_storage instead of union of sockaddr[_in[6]], however, I'm not sure how to compare them.

kerneldove: yeah misses \n?

that's cursed

sad

at least in that place

because how do you delimit json "packets"

so i guess i'll just run the command over and over in a loop

ivy: seems like sockaddr_storage is behave way more different that I thought. I have both scenario which I get my address from ifconfig in userland (copyin/out

is there any documentation to read about its behaviour?

there's nothing special about sockaddr_storage, it's just a workaround for the shitty sockets API

kerneldove: you need it fast?

it lets userland code allocate a large enough buffer to store any sort of address, except AF_UNIX, because reasons

wym?

actually it outputs neverending json

if you need to accept a socket address in the kernel, you should accept a sockaddr* pointer and a socklen, where the socklen is the length of the address

which is weird

can't even parse it

ya

then you can just use the provided socklen and don't need to care what ss_len says

infinite line

json never ends until the end

:)

ya so not usable with vmstat -w # (infinite output) which is what i wanted

like wtf

spmzt: kernel interfaces should not use sockaddr_storage

see bind(2), accept(2), etc

i love the vmstat 1 --libxo=json

json never ends :}

:)

ivy: but, if_ovpn, if_lagg, and a lot of pf interfaces (pflow, if_pfsync,.. ) use the sockaddr_storage in kernel

but it should be line delimited for each output of -w

i'm unsure if json streaming is a thing

spmzt: there are plenty of kernel interfaces that should be better than they are

my own things i delimites it with \n

actual \n not json "\n"

ya ofc, anyone that doesn't hate users does so

it's json but still line-oriented interface

if nothing else make it a libxo token that can be configured. there's pretty formatting afterall. no-top, all kinds of stuff

well i love how it breaka json in ^c

but no linedelimit-objects token?

breaks

xo is fun thing

So it's better to use sockaddr itself? or use an union of sockaddr[_in[6]] like the one in vxlan_sockaddr?

it's a great idea and has massive potential, just needs some love

hard to maintain in code too

vmstat -c 3 1 --libxo=json makes triple json

all elements are thrice eh

spmzt: ideally, never embed the size of any struct in a kernel interface, because this makes it more difficult to maintain backward compatibility

or, wait

yeah that's a bug

i get where this comes of

Ok, ty, I use the vxlan approach and use an union for sockaddr[_in[6]].

xo just does all you tell it to do

it works in part and whole modes

spmzt: a union of structs is still embedding the size of a struct in a kernel interface. but if you want to that it's up to you

file that bug too kerneldove ?

who's patching that tho

unless you do

while here, i needed simple seconds out of w(1), i couldn't figure out how to do it, so i just ended up doing uptime-secs.c :/

my head wanted to explode on attempt to implement -s option that only works if w is uptime

i only use rust heh

if that's even a good idea?

kerneldove: like only?

any foundation in some other languages?

i used it in embedded, in watchdog system check mode as nice comparative value

ya it's the only lang i use now

most developers have practical reasons to learn several languages

5iq take but ok

xo has seconds but what to parse it with :)

i used to juggle multiple langs, now i use 1 superior lang for all the stuff i do

my experiences with nodejs was the most painful

focusing on 1 lets me get better with it

where's base json parser

ketas: libprivateucl

json is nice data format tho

hmm yeah i heard

and write lua script?

i mean...

well this is maybe not what xo is for

i write my scripts in rust now too, not even bash

when i got mad at xo, someone proposes "libsys"

ketas: if you mean you want to write a base lua script that loads json, flua has the ucl module

scripts are scripts, binaries are binaries man ketas

kerneldove: sorry

nb, this is for base only, do not use flua in third-party software

my scripts remain as text, they're just rust

i just wanted to have uptime in seconds in base in shell script eh

not rube goldberg machine parse json with lua etc

rube goldberg lol

then have that from shell

well shell has limits but you can in place read and edit it

oh, it can be sysctl too, if that's easier?

unsure

wallclock seconds of uptime was handy

431!tansy /src/bsd/main [main]% echo $(date +%s) '-' $(sysctl kern.boottime | sed -e 's/.* sec = \([0-9]*\).*/\1/') | bc

277435

433!tansy /src/bsd/main [main]% w

11:16AM up 3 days, 5:04, 5 users, load averages: 0.43, 0.22, 0.15

ok but what happens if time changes?

nothing?

445!tansy ~% w --libxo=json|sed -e 's/.*"uptime":\([0-9]*\).*/\1/'

277596

maybe i'm mistaken it being affected by time

doesn't even make sense tbh

yeah it adjusts eb

eh

:p

there was a time bug once

time="`date +%s`"; boottime="`sysctl -n kern.boottime | cut -d , -f 1 | cut -d ' ' -f 4`"

back to this

it's fun actually

text parsing can break but it works

i actually grew up on interpreted langs

that may be issue

and i didn't take any of in schools either

they do have drawbacks i realize, but so comforting

my first language was mirc script, which is quite high level language i don't even know why the author created, he basically exposed entire windows apis in there, and it was easy

rewrite it in rust

rewrite what

young me even did malware in it

i think the bug in armv7 that made time run back and forth depending on which cpu core kept it, clouded my mind eh

HAHAHA the json output of vmstat isn't even valid. there're no braces around each output when -c > 1 resulting in duplicated keys

and i can't even use the output of -c 1 because it's always the stupid fucking 'since reboot' data

what a pile of trash

in the end i was able to bisect it into a commit and it was fixed

kerneldove: only saw it now?

i told it's invalid json :)

what you use it for?

you could maybe poll and it's not more resources

i didn't realize the extent of invalid json vmstat outputted

so since i can't use vmstat output, is there another way to get the pi po swap paging data?

just loooooop it

send a PR with a patch to fix the problem

or at least file a PR to report the problem

looping doesn't help

i sent w(1) pr without patch

ketas will you report the invalid json bug for vmstat pls?

but i did send periodic.conf bug with a patch

no account?

yes i could

no, no account. tyvm i'd really appreciate it. ivy would too

context-switches":" 12K"},

and it pads?

xo is code is difficult so no wonder it's buggy

i would not appreciate bug reports about w(1) right now, but if you want to cc me i may look at it eventually. right now i am working on 15.0 issues

unless you have a patch in which case yes

adrian told he told ivy about me

:p

huh?

but all those things aren't critical

to work around the issue i'm going to just parse the raw text output. really hurts me how freebsd had great tech like libxo but lots of it is left half-baked

i wonder why juniper guys didn't catch it

also, do we need tests

they prolly only tested it on cmds that output 1 set of results, rather than multiple like how vmstat -c #>1 works

i'm not a test fan

i realize why tests exist

ya and rust makes testing easy

i never bothered with tests until i started using rust now i have quite a bit

multiple times i've see program with bug flapping in and out

learn rust and leave those days behind you my friend

i am not sure how to understand "i'm not a test fan", but any functionality that exists in base can have a test

i routinely make code that i then deploy and it runs for years untouched

we have a pretty good test framework and it has nothing to do with rust

tests are complex

and work

like docs

but you need both

tests reduce work because they avoid having to fix the same problem 10 times

yes

ya

otoh, we are lacking anything like jq(1) in base, which might make it difficult to test this

i was wondering about importing Allan Jude's uclcmd...

jq is good

it's worse if bug that comes back is critical

tests on highly used fn's are so helpful

freebsd tests cover not just functions but commands, kernel subsystems, etc

uclcmd is jq like thing?

i.e., they are integration tests, not just unit tests

ketas: it's like jq but using libucl, yes

but we also don't have git in base so...

(libucl can read json files)

why base lost perl btw?

we will never have git in base, but we will have got soon

sockstat was once perl, etc

perl was removed from base because it's huge and shouldn't be in base. the few things that required it were rewritten in awk

sure, licenses

got is good

you can still install perl from ports, so not having it in base is fine

btw, at which point gpl even tells me to give code out?

if i modify it?

ketas did you file the vmstat json output bug?

not yet

ketas: GPLv2: if you distribute the binary, you must distribute the source code. GPLv3: if you provide a service based on the source code, you must distribute the source code.

actually, i'm not 100% sure about the second bit, maybe that didn't make it into GPLv3

ketas there are 2 related bugs with json output of vmstat when -c is > 1. first, output isn't encapsulated in braces, resulting in duplicate keys between multiple sets of output data. second, sets of output data aren't line delimited, making parsing hard

what if code has no local patches?

i can't just tell code is in upstream?

still, if you distribute the binary, you have to distribute the source code

the GPL says you will agree to do so under a set of "reasonable" terms it defines

how many times has anyone read gpl here

i have read 2cl bsd tho

it's just one text block :)

i just use bsd/mit so i don't have to become a lawyer in order to share code

yeah

copyleft ppl prolly have a point but i can't be bothered

submitted a bug

but sadly there's no ai who can fix this

have to be humans

i didn't find related bug by search

what i wrote

i wrote a nice paragraph with details and you just shit that turd into bugzilla? no wonder devs ignore our prs

vmstat is 8 actually

what?

well i can put your actual line there

ya let's do that

ty

which one?

and who and where?

there are 2 related bugs with json output of vmstat when -c is > 1. first, output isn't encapsulated in braces, resulting in duplicate keys between multiple sets of output data. second, sets of output data aren't line delimited, making parsing hard

Somewhere In Irc a os core bird said?

:)

Is there a live iso for freebsd desktop?

nomadbsd maybe

freebsd doesn't have a desktop, so i don't think so

there was more

there was some discussion about including KDE in 15.0, but i don't think that ever happened

Nomadbsd?

like on a installer?

there used to be others

and still are

i plan to make one for myself

yeah added

I would Like booting a live iso from pendrive and test whether my laptop WiFi works before installing it.so is there any other option I prefer xfce or cinnamon live iso.is there any other BSD distro ?

kerneldove: unless adding accounts to bugzilla is super complicated now due spam, why not have own account

And nomadbsd provides image files not iso.

do you need actual iso?

they are all bootable storages which run os

yeah xfce is nice and light

i plan to base mine on that

before n.o.s. t60 hardwarely broke, it ran fbsd over a decade

you can actually install into usb on your own

just be vary of writes

you can also put it on better flash thing

or you can just yolo it and throw flash in trash after 2y

after io errors

i lookes nomadbsd x config and i use that i think

in my cupboard i have freesbie cd-r and once i even booted it

hopelessly outdated but worked

on old hw :p

Oh, my znc is back now

Thanks for ircnow work :)

:)

I am Retrofan, if someone don't know

And my home is successfully copied!

Moved other data to the 70GB partition, now let me test it

tar -cf- -C /house1 . | tar -xf- -C /house2 ?

oh that

:p

heh

ketas: my home on freebsd, not real one

*the

:)

Strange the OG /home is (90998550528 bytes), but the new one which is should be a copy (91017371648 bytes)

The copy is bigger someway..

but same dates and permissions

rsync --dry-run it

or cpdup maybe

mosaid: du and df never are identical

rtprio: yeah, but as I can see in /home some tmp files is deleted, so everything is fine

oh yes that too

bec I relogged in

and du -A

I am now in XDM

one can also tar old one up and just move

:p

So it's normal, I am just moving now

and the deleted socket is for the trash chromium, which I removed before

or just don't use both sides

how did you move it?

cp -Rp

tar tar and let it sit is usually best

no -P?

anyway it's ok i guess :p

No problem everything is fine here, I will move it

*now

you can always like ( cd dir/ && find . | sed 's|^\.||' | sort ) > 0 ... diff -u it

or sum it

Ok

so now you can rm -Rfv /usr/oldhome

Heh, I didn't even test till now, I will logout and test

rtprtio: could I enable xattr on my home partition if it succeeded?

And a very stupid question :p is /entropy file has any connection to entropy theory?

anybody familiar with `statfs(2)` caching stale behaviour when used with MNT_NOWAIT ?

during a growfs(8) type operation it seems the free space isn't updated for quite a while (precise time from my colleagues is elusive but minutes not a few seconds)

do not stat the fs. the more you stat the fs, the more the fs stats you

wise words!

this is in the prometheus node_exporter which does a 2-step

- read the # of fs to allocate mem

(i think Nietzsche originally wrote this in his commentary on 4.3BSD)

- then read all the fs with MNT_NOWAIT

we like to know when we are running out of disk space

oh excuse me, i see you wanted a serious answer :-D

but it turns out if you grow the pool, the space is still reported at old space until you run `df(1)` or similar

oh I'm equally delighted by snark or useful help :-)

its that time of day already

you know, Nietzsche would have liked unionfs(4). you've got the unterfilesystem and the uberfilesystem...

nah he'd be all over nullfs(4)

big /dev/null user too ofc

hmm

i feel like he'd prefer /dev/urandom, it provides a continuous stream of new information. /dev/null is more like passive nihilism, which he hated

but random data without any concern for what it means? that's actual nihilism

dch: i think gleb is ignoring me :-(

why

too many good patches requiring review is my guess

eh yes

more likely because i do a lot of ranting on irc and probably ended up on everyone's ignore list

so, i patched a efi loader to load in extra env file

hmm

i also never got a response from Raptor about my ppc64le question, which is a shame, i thought they liked FreeBSD

raptor, that fancy hw maker?

i'm not sure how fancy they are, but they make POWER desktops and servers

just had to look them up

wait, ppc, in 2025?

technically no, it's POWER, not PPC

a kind of relative to ppc

In an industry first, Talos™ II ships with fully open and auditable BMC firmware, based on the Open BMC project.

finally eh

Yesss!

It works

rtprio: It worked

Thank you :)

What is the default gui in FreeBSD ?

What is Freebsd have gui?

There is nodefault gui ?

I don't know

I installed it with no gui option

I read the textinstaller does not install a gui. I presumed there was also a gui installer.

VreeBSD is my Fallback plan as i see no more new Hello OS (FreeBSD Based, MacOS like) versions & may presume it halted & goes nowhere.

maccampus: why not install it normally, then install x11,xdm.. after that add any window manger you like, and other programs to build a DE or install a ready one like Gnome or KDE

With ports ?

Or pkgs to save time

this is source vs. compiled i guess ?

Ports will help you installing old and dead apps, or create a customized binary for your system.. or do you an thing you want

there is no "default GUI" in FreeBSD and there is no GUI installer

Yas

*yes

you can install any GUI you want from ports (kde, xfce, gnome, etc.)

This what I said

mosaid: okay, i did not see you say explicitly that freebsd doesn't have a default gui

maccampus: from where did you came here (even before Hello OS)

maccampus: also, this has nothing to do with installing from source vs compiled

ivy: heh I am just confirming the info

Ah, look like your a mac user..

been coming here since the beginning of OS X (MacOS) as OSX was the continuisation of NexTStep where the cli was updated with freeBSD mainly & also i think OpenBSD parts. I thereor presume as OSX was also seen as the fourth big BSD, BSD based OS would be mre closely related to OS X then a Linux one, besides BSD comes with Linux compat layer

Also freeBSD is thus after OSX the Second biggest BSD, therefor the better one to choose. I also presumed if i had chosen HelloOS, if it had not stalled, for it is a gui on FreeBSD, i would still be a FreeBSD'er

calling MacOS a "BSD" is quite a stretch

removing the gui, isn't ita BSD ?

the kernel isnt bsd

All BSD's have different Kernels, MacOS is a mixed BSD with MaCh Kernel, as was NextStep

But this is a discussion that goes nowhere

well... theres a lot of bsd code in windows too ;)

can you point me to an OS that more closely resembles MacOS or Darwin then BSD, then do so

oh sorry, i didnt realise that we were only talking about how things look

If not, then here is where i want/got to be

in that case i agree

it definitely does look very bsd like from several angles

windows NT is semi unix

... no, it is not.

See the leaked code

By that standard there is virtually no OS in existance that is *not* "semi unix".

Yeah

heh

(ironically, z/OS *is* a unix in the most formal sense of the word)

so, what you're saying is that Unix is the equivalent of "tastes like chicken" in the computing world? :-)

Alver: but it will be there, many OSs pre 1980 not anyway similar to unix

So for now i could go like mosaid says & install any gui of choise or could go the easy way & go MidnightBSD( however they don't follow FreeBSD code anymore & became a Fourth,fifth, sixth, whatever BSD wicht might be bad, good or unimportant to me)

i am reading

daddoo: "those who do not understand unix are condemned to reinvent it poorly"

:-)

someone said that windows contains many bsod elements instead of bsd

but it did, yes

as remember, I read before that IBM was going to make Os/2 a real Unix that looks similar to windows.. in it's begins

where did the \ paths come from?

and windows is just another oa among nany

but also some people was saying final OS/2 resaleses at least works very similar to UNIX in idea not the way it works

IBM has AIX for many years though, which is Unix-like (they claim it's *not* Unix, even if there are similar interfaces)

To be In the '80ties Microsoft planned to replace DOS with Unix, but then they stole what they needed & included into DOS, OS/2 & later Windows

ketas: they was going to make, didn't done it

also who put taskbar up?

*do

to me it's crazy as i used w95

oh 3.11 existed on school machines too actually

It also was Microsoft who initiated the 2nd Unix war

also let's not forget i was unable to obtain computers in soviet union

:p

bulla, The soviet had their own computers during cold Was & even their own BSD

War *

so i didn't see many earlier things

own bsd eh?

Demos

well yes they did have computers but

plus if you have computers generally limited avail, not everyone gets it

ketas - at what point did "home computers" of any type become available to the average citizen?

in us? :p

or here

in Soviet Union

94 ?

well i can't say much as i also did born in 1983

and i didn't spend time with computer people and so on

so for own machine i got it at 1999

Could I shrink my root partition UFS

which is not even far from general public availablity of those things

no

seems all BSD - Demos refference & Demos in total is gone on wikipedia :(

I was so stupid making my root partition 195GB

wtf is demos

oh the soviet bsd

Demos wasRussian BSD for Russion made PDP clones

the "home" computers did appear at the end of 1980's, the "average people " is not the term in that context, however. "Average" people got access to computers when soviet union was dead.

there are computers in dprk too

I gather that there were quite a few systems based on the PDP-11 clone. Which was a great processor.

tsoome_: and even then it took a lot of time?

many people blurt their drinks out in us that landline phone wasn't really common here until 90s

:/

i admit it was a fast pace tho

well, as usual, you need to some level of income to start owning things outside the survival needs;)

sure

soon after pots, isdn came, then were quickly passed by dsl

ketas: here too

many things were passed

like vhs was on the way out when it came

kind of

landline phones was not really common till 1990

what is english name for pots line multiplex

that was one cursed system

but they you had like phone at HOME

We got our first personal one in that time, and it was from 60s.. you get it free with subscription, you can pay for newer one as I remember

sure, if you had "connections" you got to see things

it's fun how soviet union did both blame west and copy it

I still have it here :) and it's working

as they were unable to make basic goods

"pots line multiplex" - are you thinking of a "party line"? That's where people shared the phone but each house had a slightly different ring.

not party

2 numbers 1 user at time

and todays russia is still unable to function as normal state

in the soviet Union telephone lines was always party line's

have to jizzz into other's people's teacups

ketas: aren't they do it all the time?

haha

You, your correspondent & the KGB opperative

This was in rural places where I lived, In big cities it was there like form 1920s

*from

tsoome_: i bet you have answer what that linesharing was

i can't google it out again

it wasn't their invention either

not really sure:) we never had landline when I was a kid and I have never been interested too deep about phone systems:D in my alma mater we had some current loop devices back then, but thats about it:D

Oh, I have here 1389 pkg installed, ports not counted it uses 104GB without my home folder.. so I think I was a right idea

*it

lets see it osta.ee/ru/telefoniliini-blokiraator-198355703.html

anyway

i once found english specs for that system

but yeah, that takes ton of time to trickle all the computer stuff to all the people

Oh, no it wrong calculated it, it only uses 48GB, I need to shrink it

*I

sadly, no shrinks

I saw some way to do it

I will it work?

i forgot to add guard space to my zfs too so i'm stuck

looked up, planned, forgot

dog

doh

on computers, i'm amazed how hetzner runs their dc like some basement dungeon computer repair shop

bare hdds, what's case for, etc

there is no ufs shrink

and i found why zfs has none

basically it likes to save once

this was done on purpose

unfortunately this isn't compatible with what size of disk i have today type setups

i've never found the need to shrink

well, not since i got rid of all my 40gb or less hard drives

rtprio: so shrinking is impossible?

basically impossible; you basically back it up and recreate it smaller

that's why a single / is so popular for non-zfs

So what now, getting back to my old home?

that depends on many factors, none of which i am aware of

rtprio: let me explain it: I have 2 drivers connected, two of them 500GBs.. first one which contains root (195GB for root, 195GB for the new Home and 66GB for an additional storage), second is the oldest and NTFS is nearly full (only 10GB is left on the third partition).. so I wanted to create additional storage, and I also store in home. but home is getting bigger and bigger, and the...

...upgrading processes would surly make me sometime lose all this data; so moved it now to it's own 195GB partition, and I was planning to shrink the root to 75GB.. which will enable me to increase the 66GB partition to 195GB.

and I am going to use verdman UFS boot environment for the next upgrade in april, and if it failed, I can easily install fresh copy of 14 without worrying about my home (I will also moved /usr/ports to safe place, and created a symlink)

*I also moved

And the third drive I will reconnect, and copy the whole data to my new 1TB using ZFS pool

and I will

Also, the second and third ones arealso (195, 195 and 75).. heh, I think every thing is clear now..

I want to take the benfit of the unused space in / root, also make the upgrade easy and safe as possible.. I made it huge like that; bec. I thinked pkgs will take a lot of space.

just skip to using the 1tb with zfs and then it doesn't matter how big your $HOME is

shuffling around on your partitions too small is just going to be tedious

are there other kinds of 'paging' than swap?

ya looks like it

mdo.c is beautiful code, props to everyone involved

link?

why is vmstat named as such since it seems to include more data than vm subsystem data, like disk io

kerneldove: disk access goes through the vm, unified buffer cache. docs.freebsd.org/en/books/arch-handbook/vm

wow interesting, ty. well ok but what about cpu usage time info, that's not vm too is it?

I could keep justifying but it's just a general performance overview

fun times, ran into this today, cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/?id=b65…58e9396848d3963e9555d356d0f4ca6900a

realdeimos: on the upside, there's already a fix available... :)

kerneldove, cgit.freebsd.org/src/tree/usr.bin/mdo/mdo.c

zi: yes, hopefully in 15 release. Setting the boot/loader.conf line for that hangs the kernel for added fun.