weird that Postfix doesn't support OCSP stapling

saper: there's no way that change could cause that problem without `device wg` in your kernel config

at a minimum, but even then just having it wouldn't cause it unless it was passing traffic

s/wouldn't/couldn't/

rwp: what you are noticing is probably copy on write (COW). and ZFS is made to do that to prevent data loss

zfs definitely has more random writes then ext4 or xfs

the difference is audible

sfox audible?

yes

storage devices make sounds

sfox like you hear the computer making noises? With your ears?

yes

heads move

and coils whine

sfox oh yes. Sorry been a while since I used a disk drive

ssds make noises too

sfox really? I've never heard one

you just need to have a quiet enough cooling system to hear them

yes they squeal

sfox my computer has no cooling system. I'm gonna listen more carefully

it sounds like coil whine but probably is something else

solid state ..no moving parts

no fan

Yeah, I can't hear anything

more enterprisely hardware makes more sounds.. probably because there's more power moving through them

yeah, enterprise ssds make sounds

they squeak when you write heavily to them

your computer is like a phone?

How?

I want to see a video of this

phone? what phone are you talking about?

i'll try to search one up

the computer psu no fan, the cpu no fan..solid state

the phone no moving parts..mechanical parts like fans..all solid state..cpu,ram,battery..

cause psu has fan, cpu has fan on most computers and laptops

just because a electronic part is solid state doesn't mean it doesn't move

if there's alternate current it does

well if you mean accelerometers and such sure

if there's enough power flowing through a solid state part

it'll vibrate

resonance

some audio frequency PAs you can even hear what's being played with a dummy load hooked up from the amount of power flowing through it alone

Title: SSDs are NOT SILENT! SSD M.2 making high pitch noise or crackling/whirring - YouTube

But you are talking about something using like 100-1KW. Not a SSD that uses like 7-10W

I mean, my 1KW Microwave oven makes sounds too

sfox wow thats pretty cool

Thanks for sharing

I can't hear it over my disk shelves LOL

lol

my olpc xo-1 laptop one laptop per child was no fans..but that was 400MHz amd/national semi cpu, 256MB of nand storage and like 128MB of ram.

7-15watts maybe

latest pi arm foo 5 needs fan

pi arm4 no fan, but not anymore

pi4 arm no fan

pedantic harmonics in the ic's

no moving parts..sbc/soc/ic's...no fans..it not complicated

the psu wallwart outside the box..

heat!

Title: Solid-state electronics - Wikipedia

The term is also used as an adjective for devices in which semiconductor electronics that have no moving parts replace devices with moving parts, such as the solid-state relay in which transistor switches are used in place of a moving-arm electromechanical relay, or the solid-state drive (SSD) a type of semiconductor memory used in computers to replace hard disk drives, which store data on a rotating disk.

no fans! same deal

a brick of IC

like your phone!

psu cpu storage..all have or had moving parts..the fan, or spinning rust..

30 x 1GB scsi drives in array..across six scsi controllers..you want to talk about heat and fans!

thats 30GB back in 1994 sun ssa 100 110 disk array

44,000.00 dollars

noise!

scsi - to fiber - gbics

those suckers burnt out from heat all the time

high voltage differential scsi vs low voltage ...hp Jamaica arrays

or we go san fc-al loop 255 disks

hot/cold aisle in DC

Micromachined micro-electromechanical systems (MEMS) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerometer moving parts in IC!

Title: Accelerometer - Wikipedia

x y z baby

thats moving parts in IC form!

sfox, !

i don't think nand flash are mems

i never said that

nand or nor is nothing to do with mems

dunno what your talking about

Title: How Logic Gates Work: OR, AND, XOR, NOR, NAND, XNOR, and NOT

perhaps spend some time on learning then

nhttps://www.nand2tetris.org/

Title: Home | nand2tetris

you could also do nor2tetris

nand or nor..you can build computer with

ttl foo

Title: NAND logic - Wikipedia

Title: NOR logic - Wikipedia

Transistor–transistor logic

sfox, software > hardware..you dont need to know that foobar in end

hardware is just electrical signals..the software is abstraction into real world

software > hardware

no that's analog

turing complete system A can run/emulate system B

ok sfox whatever you say

im done.

yes

whatever i saw

now make me a sandwich

sfox: "that's analog" nothing in that was analog.

guess you're still making your own sandwiches.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities.

sfox, have you heard about this ?

sudo make me a sandwich

perhaps sudo -i

you want the root

so i'm pretty confident i can get a bsd machine up and running, with apache and mariadb and php

however

what to do about a mail server?

i've always used simple manager applicaitons that do all the hard work for me

don't suppose theres something like that for freebsd?

your mailserver mx record in dns will be blocked by the big guys...

right to /dev/null...

why would you think that?

cause spam

20 years ago different story

i have no problem with "big guys" rejecting my mail on my current mail server

and theres no reason why that would be a problem on the new one

GoSox: Are you referring to something like CPanel or the actual MTA like Exim/Postfix?

i don't have anything specific in mind, just anything that i can use to "easily" setup and manage a mail server

right now i use this obscure mac specific program to run postfix

before that, I used the tools that came with macosx server

back when that was a thing

mua or mta

GoSox: You might check out Citadel (citadel.org). It's more like a self-contained BBS system but it may work as a configurable mail server; you'll need to read the documentation to see if it works for your use case however.

Though it might be best to just try and get Postfix up and running; it's somewhat easy to configure.

There is an upcoming book by Michael W. Lucas on this kickstarter.com/projects/mwlucas/run-your-own-mail-serve

I hope it's "run your own mail server" in the old definition of it, because to most people, "run your own mail server" means "just set up a G Suite account brah".

Probably because of Discord, which has been successful in redefining the word "server" to mean "a chatroom on one of our proprietary servers which we can ban whenever we feel like".

Just read, it is about setting up Postfix with all the features needed today to survive in the email world, such us DKIM, dealing with SPF, etc.

the book is coming up in August

I was just joking.

long shot: I run a mono-based gameserver in linuxlator, and I get these errors with some regularity: `mono_thread_internal_set_priority: pthread_setschedparam failed, error: "Operation not permitted" (1)`. Is that something I can fix?

the server runs under a non-privileged user

Well, looks like you answered your own question.

running the server as root would be a bad bad idea I guess, can I somehow allow that user to change those scheduler values?

I don't have a FreeBSD machine at hand right now (not like I ever succeeded in running Linuxlator at all), but perhaps you can just chown whichever file(s) it relies on.

file? its trying to set scheduler priority / niceness, but it seems to a value its not allowed to

In Unix, everything is a file.

aaah there is a system for this: man.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=m…path=FreeBSD+14.1-RELEASE+and+Ports

Title: mac_priority(4)

06:56 [ rennj] your mailserver mx record in dns will be blocked by the big guys...

I've had Deutsche Telekom block my mails because I "don't have an impressum".

Told them I don't intend to run a web server, but a mail server...

Anyway, they didn't understand so I just blocked their MX, too. I'm still alive.

Hard reject on the mail layer with a specific error message that will show up in the bounce mail so the user knows it's their fault not mine. I couldn't care less.

Giving in and not running your own MX because of "those big guys" is just emporing their monopolism game even more, what's the point?

Run your own MX, and if the big guys refuse to talk to you, refuse to talk to them. That's about it.

Oh I just realized I replied to a conversation that was 5 hours ago. :D

I believe you say that because you're neither Australian nor Neo-Zelander. Oceanians do that all the time.

armin: In my experience, it's not all that bad. Google lets most emails through, but they recently started flipping the coin on each email I send on whether to deliver or not. Microsoft is by far the worst email provider to send emails to from a self hosted mail server, they will put your emails in the spam box if you're lucky, or just not deliver at all if you're not lucky.

But at least Yahoo and Proton seem to deliver everything without issues.

And yes, here in Japan Yahoo is still a big thing, and they too still provide email hosting. However, the storage they give you is extremely limited, and they really love to send you spam directly from Yahoo a billion times a day.

So your inbox is always clogged up.

I have the pi 400 and I wanted to use freebsd .  The one version that is said to work they don't offer at all.  besides like the video setting I don't know if it need firmware  or  really anything what it might need to work. I just know when I run it on the thumb  drive I see the rainbow screen .  Anyone

tarel2: I don't know too much about the rpi 400, but I run it on an rpi4 no problem

what I did is get the "FreeBSD-14.1-RELEASE-arm64-aarch64-RPI.img.xz" image from here: download.freebsd.org/releases/arm64/aarch64/ISO-IMAGES/14.1

Title: Index of /releases/arm64/aarch64/ISO-IMAGES/14.1/

and put it on an SD card

So  SD or thumb drive matter?

There is not much on the site , the version it says did work , is no longer there.   like said beyond change cpu setting there is not much to make it work .  Yet when I got a version I did not see anything

afaik, if you just use the image from the downloads page, you have to put it on the SD card

Morning.If I upgrade to 13,3 from 13.2, `freebsd-update` reports that it won't change files I've modified, like sshd_config. How do I see a diff so that I can implement the updates by hand?

gh00p, not sure if there's a better way, but in the past i've downloaded base.txz and compared what's in there to my /etc download.freebsd.org/ftp/releases/amd64/amd64/13.3-RELEASE/base.txz

remiliascarlet: Well the worst experience so far I ever had was with Deutsche Telekom. Google I had no issues with so far, that usually delivers quite well from my MX.

remiliascarlet: Also hello to Japan, I'm in Frankfurt (Germany).

armin: strange, I have problems with my emails arriving into spam folders at Microsoft or so, but I didn't have anyone blocking my mails like this yet.

saper: Excuse me asking this, but SPF/DKIM all set up correctly?

I have no SPF, but I use DKIM.

ah. :)

saper: Did you check with mail-tester.com if that says something?

(or some other thing that checks these things?)

saper: That's what I usually use to help me debug these issues, sometimes it isn't much helpful but often it is.

7.2/10

That's not too much. :)

I am not debugging right now, just wanted to tell you that I don't think that DTAG blocked me (in or out)

ah

ok :)

armin: 7.2 is what one gets without SPF and DMARC

awhile back i switched from postfix to opensmtpd, and it's been so much better. the config just makes so much more sense to me

I am using sendmail

so your saying opensmtpd > postfix > sendmail

not surprising, sendmail.cf and m4 macro language was always a pain in the ass

I haven't spent too much time with OpenSMTPD but Postfix configuration is a table driven decision making configuration. Every config decision is a table. Match the left-hand-side and do the right-hand-side. Therefore I find it very easy.

ehh... same is with sendmail.cf - if left hand will match, the right hand is used:D

opensmtp is fire, but it relies to heavily on the filter system for things that should be built in

But it is using a sed-like Turing complete language to do it. People don't like shell syntax and want something simpler, well, sendmail syntax takes that and does it even more deeply arcane.

One question: does FreeBSD have an equivelant to OpenBSD's ``sysctl -n hw.vendor/version/product` and NetBSD's `sysctl -n machdep.dmi.system-vendor/product/version`?

sounds like dmidecode/smidecode foo

heh solaris smidecode correction smbios

remiliascarlet, I only about "sysctl hw.model".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_BIOS en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_Management_Interface is that data

Title: System Management BIOS - Wikipedia

rennj: I am saying that I am using sendmail, but I have learned how sendmail works. Yes, I have custom rulesets. If someone needs a really flexible system, they can invest some time to learn that. Otherwise, no.

yeah i saw wcarson response, ran with it

wrong nick

is opensmtpd that OpenBSD thing? I had some strange issue once I wanted to try it, but this was long ago and I forgot.

Title: OpenSMTPD - Wikipedia

FreeBSD crushes it! Read the article on Phoronix!

Title: FreeBSD 14.1 vs. DragonFlyBSD 6.4 vs. NetBSD 10 vs. Linux Benchmarks - Phoronix

I hope many people frustrated about latest Microsoft Systemd shenanigans see that benchmark

what happened with microsoft & systemd?

I've switched over most my my linux devuan systems (debian fork without systemd) to freebsd so i'm out of the loop

remiliascarlet, dmesg should have that info

sfox: I believe it's a reference to Poettering getting a job at Microsoft, though he still plans to work on systemd. That's pretty viable, considering that Linux is a core part of Microsoft's business these days, with things like Azure

oh

i hate how much influence a few megacorps have over linux now

at the detriment to everyone else who uses linux

well, they're the ones that provide the funding

i hate how debian gave a big middle finger to it's whole community, brazenly against the DFSG and caused a fork

Could that happen to FreeBSD?

one corporation comes along, provides some funding and then seizes control of the whole project against the will and wishes of everyone else?

then gets bored and leaves leaving a whole bunch of unmaintianed broken crap

The decision in Debian was reached through democratic means of the developers, by a general resolution.

maybe officially, but if you dig into the details not really

lets move this to #freebsd-social

not sure what i'm doing wrong, but i'm trying to set up a 14.1 AMD64 vm in virt-manager with qemu, and no matter what i do, the network on the installer doesn't work

zayd, What is the host OS running virt-manager? This works for me. If you try a different non-bsd system does that also fail the same way? If so then something is wrong with your virt-manager installation.

rwp: the host is running Arch Linux, i'll try creating another vm to test

Unless you tell me otherwise I'll assume you are selecting DHCP and are running a default network with a dnsmasq dhcp server that can provide an address.

i'm selecting DHCP when i install, but not even the installer itself is able to access the internet

i did select*

i've tried with a few different dns servers and couldn't get it to do anything

"virsh net-list --all" should show "default active yes yes" for "Name State Autostart Persistent"

The other option is to use a network bridge and the LAN DHCP server. That works well too.

it doesn't show anything under the table, but the network is active and says so when i try to use net-start

In that case at virt-manager creation time select the bridge (usually br0)

ok it's definitely a virt-manager problem, i tried launching a gentoo live iso and it doesn't ping either

i tried to add the bridge with device name br0, which wasn't found, but i went back to check net-list and it now says "default active no yes"

i guess i'll just jump to #virt on oftc now, as this is barely fbsd related anymore

I'm having an issue with the path to /usr/local/poudriere/ports/default since I'e had to restore my tank zpool (I had a UPS fail and cause several reboots, along with one near failing hard drive, I ended up having to back up and restore the pool).

As /usr/local/poudriere/ports/ is empty I'm not sure if there's a missing symlink

so the *BSD's reject GNU/FSF philosophy and the idea of copyleftism... however I am curious... if you refer to bsd code as "free" or "libre" would BSD supporters get offended?

as "open source" was the original term before fsf/gnu/stallman stated that "Open" isn't good enough and it must be "free" software

just making sure I don't accidentally cause conflict :/

polarian: I don't think you'll accidentally cause conflict. The BSD licenses are usually referred to as permissive licenses.

polarian: docs.freebsd.org/en/books/faq/#why-called-FreeBSD

Title: Frequently Asked Questions for FreeBSD | FreeBSD Documentation Portal

mzar: I have read that

but I am not talking about just FreeBSD

OK

I am talking about in general

do BSD groups dislike the use of "free" or "libre", I am more interested in libre

because I have never seen a single BSD dev use the word

meanwhile I have seen it EVERYWHERE On fsf posts

general talks is fine, there are people who think that best is communist system, while other think that best is capitalist system, please try to convince any of them that they are not right

mzar: the political side of free/open source

there is a clash between them, so only loose, business cooperation can happen

dammi

dammit*

I know of quite a frew BSD developers (mainly OpenBSD) which run their own companies and profit from BSDs

they funnel the profit back into contributing code though...

I see no reason why they should be hated for trying to make a living from what they love...

after all... how will you ever make open/free software sustainable until you can cut out the funding from big companies and governmental entities

left wing supporters would see all projects begging for government loans

that doesn't sound "free" to me

Bruce Perens coined the term Open Source but allowed it to refer to proprietary software. You can look but you can't touch and can't redistribute. That's a big sticking point in the Open v. Free schism.

Personally I refer to both all permissive BSD licenses and GNU Copyleft licenses as Free Software. Both are Free Software and meet the the Four Essential Freedoms.

rwp: but more specifically the use of the word "libre"

Because of the schism many people prefer to use Libre instead. In Latin derived languages it has a good connotation for freedom which is desired.

BSD activists tend to think that using Open and having it mean non-free is acceptable and they like it that way and so they always use Open.

Again my opinion is that it is a tragedy when different organizations with strong roots in free software both working toward the same goals but hate each other.

It's like the different religions that because of various differences will consider the other heretical.

polarian: BSD *is* libre

Note that I am just a *BSD and GNU/Linux/* user here and have no voice and do not speak for any organization other than myself.

saper: yes but I am more concerned about the term used

they don't really consider each other heretical, but rather ill-advised. For the GNU folk have an us-vs-them mentality against "developers of non-free software", whereas BSD folk offer their code for anyone to use, for any purpose

libre is very much used by fsf and gnu

if you start coming off as a fsf supporter in BSD communities you will be smashed

(mainly in openbsd circles :P)

I don't think so

so if y ou use the word libre, nobody would care?

libressl is an OpenBSD project :P

oh yeah... I forgot about that

they broke their naming scheme... everything is OpenSomethingD

The one organization that I know that refers to their code as open source yet clearly violates the open source definition as set out by OSI is FUTO

Which is a bit of a shame, because FUTO is a good cause

Humans being what they are none of the schemes are truly consistent. GNU's GNU Free Documentation License is non-free if it includes invariant sections for example.

what is interesting is the use of GPL as a tool to keep multiple corporations working on the code in check against each other

I think using Libre is a good way to avoid the controversy between Open and Free. I think it just hasn't been picked up by the *BSD community which thinks the distinction is not needed.

it's really amusing that the documenataion for emacs and gcc is shipped in the non-free repo in debian because of the GNU FDL

saper, I don't understand quite what you mean there. Could you clarify? "multiple corporations working on the code in check against each other"??

rwp: corporations mistrusting each other are able to work on the same codebase together, because GPL does not allow any of them to take it out into a proprietary product.

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

And that is a very good point.

that's the case of the Linux kernel right now

Also there are some good success stories. For example OpenWrt started entirely because the GPL forced Linksys to publish their Linux source for the firmware for their routers. That's a hugely successful project that if it had used a BSD system would not have happened.

as a consultant, I prefer to push stuff under GPL, so that others can simply buy the license they want if GPL is too tight for them.

As a consultant I have been making my living supporting GNU/Linux systems using the GPL. It's perfectly possible and reasonable to make a living supporting Free Software.

I am really angry at the notion that free software means free support.

Which I say explicitly as a counter to people who think that the GPL means you can't make money from it. Sure you can.

People who swear by "the community", yet don't bother to send a single patch

Is there a dedicated IRC channel for FreeBSD Jails?

There is. #freebsd-jails

thank you.

Howdy, folks!

servus, nicholaus04

Managed to reinstall openmpt123, and get mtm set up.

In terms of openmpt123, i'm playing back diamond.j2b (AKA: Diamondus Level).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servus o_o

Title: Servus - Wikipedia

And yes, i'm in the process of configuring cwm, and building st.

Howdy!

there a command in base to do nothing but return a file back to size 0 as if i just touch'd it?

o/

"> filename"

ie. just have the shell open it for writing, then close it

ty!

Also, some shells hardly give 2 cruds about if theres a space between the command and the operator.

most, even

So you can just write it as >FILENAME

should there be a space between > and filename?

polyex: Makes it look better, but no.

so >file is more proper?

polyex: Pretty much.

why?

But you can also do > FILENAME in that case, but if you're just typing it in the shell, just doing >FILENAME is enough, since both mean the same thing.

The only difference is the way it's typed.

fewer keystrokes; your keyboard will last longer!

jgh: True that!

but why is the proper form having no space?

wanna learn

polyex, '>' is a shell metacharacter. Meaning that the shell parses '>' out regardless of if it has spaces around it or not.

ah so it's actually like " file" which is weird

The shell metacharacters are | & ; ( ) < > space tab newline

tyvm!

neither way is "more proper"; both work just fine

The one that often confuses people are { and } which are reserved words not metacharacters. Those need spaces around them to be read as the intended word. Which is why {} for find does not need to be quoted. It's not special there. {} is not { }

ouch

And ! is also a reserved word. Which is why it always needs spaces around it too.

jgh: then stop using the command line and start using guis, that will save your keyboard even more lol

Why ouch?

just kinda tedious when syntax rules are like that

polarian, You can have my keyboard when you pry it out of my cold dead fingers. :-)

rwp: is it mechanical?

I am not currently using a Model-M buckling spring keyboard if that is what you are asking. I am using a Thinkpad keyboard.

show off

Syntax rules are just rules. It's like driving. There are many arcane rules for driving. Uphill direction has the right-of-way on a one-lane road. Just for an example.

must be an old thinkpad

For me, any keyboard works, mechanical or not. Just as long as it's bareable to type on it.

I thought FreeBSD users/developers were all MacOS users :P

I have both old and new. I am currently typing on a newer model island style keyboard. I don't like some things about it but I have made my peace with it.

polarian: The ironic thing about that? OSX's code is based on BSD in some spots.

I hate to think what the mech of the KSR-33 I started out on was, but it had two very distinct feels (local mode vs. remote-echo)

Though, i do feel like it does use FreeBSD's userland code in certain places.

nicholaus04: yeah... they are technically using apples enshittified version of BSD :P

polarian: Pretty much.

Though, the only thing that's open source from OSX, is the kernel.

Everything else in OSX is just BSD userland code(Which varies in license), and the compositor/WM, plus other UI programs that come with OSX(Proprietary).

Even then, most of OSK's code just comes from NextSTEP, which is also a BSD-like.

There's a bit more to Apple's open source: opensource.apple.com/projects - WebKit, CUPS

Title: Apple Open Source

But enough about that poo-poo, let's return back to this channel's main topic.

Schamschula: Ah, forgot about that. :/

Interestingly, slowly NextSTEP API's are starting to break, due to the ever more stringent rules under clang.

So, no matter where ya go OS wise(Other than windows), it's all UNIX.

(if you ignore IBM)

VMS (*cough*)

what is the "right" way to have __BSD_VISIBLE defined?

polarian: I am typing this on FreeBSD-current

I thought __BSD_VISIBLE was automatically defined. Meaning that if one doesn't want it then one must avoid it with -traditional or some such similar compile option. No?

so, it says here (man.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=m…path=FreeBSD+14.1-RELEASE+and+Ports), that I can either put a user or the process into the right groups, so that it can change priorities. how do I put a process in a group?

Title: mac_priority(4)

do I somehow change the group on the executable?

and that propagates to the process?

without the calling user being in that group?

AFAIK one starts the process from that group so that the group is present from the start at creation time.

ah so the user has to be in the group

Yes.

kk, i'll try that once I reboot the machine to enable that kernel option

i got a prog running as its own user account as a rc service, managed by daemon. sometimes it would invoke a "sudo" command. worked fine in 13 but in 14 it started saying no such file or dir. turns out i needed to add /usr/local/bin/ to it to give it full path. but why did i need to add the path? isn't /usr/local/bin in every PATH by default?

i gave the user the nologin shell, so it can't pull its env from a shell's config file. so how does a nologin user get an env?

basically i gotta add a path to PATH for nologin accounts or?

Howdy, again!

Managed to get st compiled, and properly configured cwm!

polyex: you can set it in sudoers(5)

I am almost sure there is no difference between 13 and 14, there might have been a hack added somewhere which got removed when updating /etc

set what in sudoers? the path to add?

Also, i managed to get sdl_jewels, and got a score of 534 pts on lvl 40.

grats

A perfect game based benchmark for OpenGL, as that's what it uses.

saper i'm almost positive something changed in 13 -> 14 that took "/usr/local/bin" out of the PATH for a nologin user. i don't see anywhere i hacked it in to work on this 13 bocx

box

According to glxinfo, the GPU on this laptop supports GL 3.3.

For a semi-cruddy laptop that i decided to dedicate for binary testing, it's not too bad.

New high score on sdl_jewels! 819 pts on lvl 64.

Howdy, again!

Just had to restart mtm after i installed the terminfo database.

names

Managed to get quake 1 (Shareware) installed on here with quakeforge, and it works pretty darn well.

Played the game up to E1M3, but i made a save game so i can get back to it when i need to.

whoa nice

2024 the year of freebsd gaming?

Yep!

i am trying to survive a jail semi crash issue without rebooting. the jail is finally stopped, but it's a thin jail where i need to get rid of the mount. mount grep jailname returns /usr/local/blah/14.1_RELEASE on /usr/local/blah/jailname/root/.bastille. how can i unmount this without unmounting /usr/local/blah/14.1-RELEASE from the other thin jails at the same time?

Though, i played it with only a keyboard, since laptop mousepads stink in terms of using them in a FPS.

It's not that they're unstable, it's just that they're uncomfortable.

saper i confirmed. printenv from a nologin user on freebsd 13 has lots more in it, including /usr/local/bin in PATH, than same thing on freebsd 14. so the default env of a nologin user was definitely changed in 14 but it's not in the release notes?

kevans ^ (sorry to alert but you're the best guy i know)

polyex: how did you run it, can you copy the command used to switch the user and show the environment?

it's an rc service so i run through that. i set a prog_user

so daemon runs it as that automatically

lemme copy env

on my FreeBSD 13: # id nologin

id: nologin: no such user

what command would print the shell being used?

ps p $$

scoobybejesus: umount /usr/local/blah/jailname/root/.bastille

what happened to the default nologin shell env between freebsd 13 and 14? termbin.com/xda3

the environment depends on the environment of the user you have started it

so what's unclear in my paste?

the latter 14 looks more like the environment after the systems has been started. What you label as "freebsd 13" might be the environment coming from "service prog onestart" being run from the interactive shell

no

everything is the same

automatic service prog start done by rc.conf on startup

prog_enable="YES"

I find it unlikely that EDITOR is set to vi on startup

and yet

I am 90% sure that what you describe as the environment in 'freebsd 13' is not coming from the service being started at the system boot

im not saying it is. im saying it's coming from the default env given to a nologin shell

user

when executing something

might be coming from daemon too, not sure