<BarnabasDK> well freebsd never claimed to be a desktop os and not really what it is made for

bit rich coming from #linux

bombuzal: I do not understand

As I said, a serverside os

the fact there is thunderbolt support at all is more suprising

Unlike GNU/Linux, which was written for desktop use - like BeOS....

agree

lol

stupid

bombuzal: not much of a people person eh?

thats ok

bombuzal: You are not quite right. First, there's "Chapter 8. Desktop Environments" of the Handbook. Second: github.com/FreeBSDFoundation/proj-laptop

well for all practical purpose - he is right

well, ahtough there was not any official claim (how that claim would it look like?), it just works on desktops and laptops very well.

yes I agree. And then there are the areas, where linux also took a long time to get it right

and linux is maybe not even there completely yet

I know I have not have much success with running Freebsd On my monitors via thunderbolt

on my laptop directly - works 100%

it does make it a mess - it also grows innovation

but it is not pretty

what's good about being sencond on the run is that you can learn from those how are running first and try to avoind making same mistakes.

absolutely

checkpoint: it was BarnabasDK saying FreeBSD wasn't for desktops/laptops

I was being sarcastic

bombuzal: oops, sorry.

bombuzal: well in that case so was I of cause ..

:3

one thing I do not understand is the drive to introduce non standardized languages into the kernel in linux

so many applications REQUIRE that

lol

death to Rust

yeah!

:)

automotive, space, military etc etc etc

I actually like rust - the rust people - not so much

BarnabasDK: there are special purpose OSes for that case, I cannot see why would they need Linux on flight control.

saving money?

what OS do a Tesla use? I have no idea

ElonOS

besides, Rust itself does not solve any issues, esp bad coding attitude and logical errors.

MaskOS X ?

checkpoint: no, you still have to use your head, but some of the traditional memory allocation issues are solved - at the price of more memory usage ofc

Okay -- I don't code, but if I did -- I would probably consider Zig

more memory usage? how?

and some of the rust re implementations just make no sense what so ever. Like re implementing UUtils

hodapp: because of the default immutable model

hodapp: exactly, more $$$ to DDR5 producers

I mean - its a tradeoff isn't it

the main problem is that there still very few Rust programmers, who till support all that stuff they are trying to rewrite ?

and to what standard was it written? whatever the git state of the date was

but yeah, code and dissapear

leave the rubble to someone else

lets take UUtils, it must be the best tested set of tools at all

in 2026

I cannot possibly see the idea in a re implementation just to have it in your "favorite" language

there's some reason though - get money from US gov/mil

so just to cash a government check?

those are obsessed with proven code and proven languages

then why rust

unproven, and non standardized

and yes I still like it

but as opposed to c/c++ not a comparizon here

from what I know, gov/mil guys love Ada and that soft of stuff, Rust is pretty close

but seriously - I had the idea that linux was deep inside automotive, aerospace and medical etc

maybe I was mistaken

Linux is in a lot of places including embedded. But FreeBSD is actually in a lot of places used by companies too

I worked with Ada and that is DEFINATLY standardized up its wazoo

It has the advantage of the MIT license, where these companies can take FreeBSD do whatever they want, and not have to give anything back at all, even recognition

I realize the use of FreeBSD, I am one of the ones that do

famously - network devices

actually not, Linux is heavily used in appliances like car radios etc. all the real stuff (ECI) work on RTOses and a like. memory shortage and execution time prediction is still an issue.

As to why Rust, and not Ada, Zig, Go, or something else -- No idea, Rust has a cult like following though

SponiX: yeah, I do not understand the cult thing, eventhough I like the language

it is just another programming lang

I agree that encouraging memory safe code for security purposes is important. But I don't think Rust is the only way to do this

checkpoint: I like c too, thats where I started

yeah, I actually started with lattice c on the mc68000

amiga

before that - on the c64 those things made little sense

it supported amigaos quite well in fact

or I suppose - workbench

actually my first lang was Fortran on big iron in late 80th, but I lost interest in big iron pretty soon and switched to micros (Atari, BK-0010)

yeah, for me it was the other way around, I had to move backwards to make money, so I started coding cobol on VAX / acms decset for LEGO

now there is a truely terrible language

must be up there with php or perl

at the place I worked in 80th PL/I was quite popular

and since I realized we might as well code in pascal or c in acms, it just made it the more bitter

perl is ok if you have to hack stuff

and for some automation

just dont build large systems around it

it is very fast at parsing large files, which was the original purpuse

I still don't like it

ooh, neat, have never really looked at Linuxulator and didn't realize it's pretty turn-key to get a Linux userspace in something like Debian on top of FreeBSD

all this talk of webdev reminds me that I need to write a fastcgi server for something

hodapp: I think you can even make a linux jail, I haven't tried though

but the handbook says so

anyone aware what is the state for Docker in FreeBSD ? some ppls needs it badly

I do sort of miss the terminal days though, no matter the system. They where nigh on indestructable

checkpoint: docker and kubernetes tie close to the linux kernel afaik

BarnabasDK: yes, I know. there's docker package, just wonder what is it. :)

docker-18.09.5_30 Open-source application container engine

so close that microsoft did not re implement the handles in the windows core, but added a linux sub system, which is really a linux core booted in a virtual machine afaik

but where they vms?

or just partitions

HP-UX had a great system for dividing expensive hardware

now it is non supported

BarnabasDK: the underlying system was a sort of hypervisor, an operator starts a many VMs as programs he/she wants to run

ic

but within the same os and arch though?

BarnabasDK, first VMs (370 onward) if you were runing the hypervisor, then partitions (LPARs) IIRC from ES/9000 onwards.

for me Docker looks pretty similar to what we had on S/370

sweet

you know much more about this stage of computing than me

but still same os and etc

mouthpalps

you could not run a bsd unix in a partition for argument

I never really understood why we needed to do hw level abstraction tbh

in production

for development - yes ofc

LXGHTNXNG, yes, mouthpalps. I'm a giant crab, as my name would indicate.

I was aware of that.

checkpoint: yes

seems to be a 7 year cycle

... are jails a bad solution (being essentially lean VMs)?

they do not emulate hw

does Docker?

no, but I like that too

I am thinking of the vmware stuff

see also: vnet jails, which create separate network stacks, thus emulating network hardware

jep

I know

is there something close to vnet in Linux, btw ?

netns

yeah something like that

but jails do not let you run a macosx in a sub system

because jails are not a hw emulation layer

I think that entire idea was wrong in production

bhyve ?

bhyve is a alternative to wmware isnt it

yes

rather KVM

bhyve fits into the same class as kvm

Jails just let you virtualize the FreeBSD kernel. Linux can do it too, with namespaces.

Bhyve is qemu, vmm is kvm

the bhyve binary compares to the qemu binary, the vmm kmod compares to kvm

yeah, like I run kvm here on my linux lappie in order to have a windows 10

I think I have a win 10, a freebsd and a haiku os pt on my lappie

deployed via zfs

If bhyve could do intel igpu sr-iov, I would use it yesterday

I've used it before at work

bhyve cannot share GPUs ?

It can passthrough the entire device, but SR-IOV lets you create multiple virtual instances of a single GPU and pass them through independently

And the host can maintain its own device

amigan: got it, thanks.

FreeBSD can do SR-IOV for ethernet controllers but it does not seem that i915/xe are supported

Even on linux you have to use a janky out of tree kernel module

yeah

hw virt has stil not ever brought anything to me in production, for local dev yes

I know a lot of my ms friends disagree 100%

why not just build the sw to your platform? in place

My use case is a windows VM, it's the best way to get a desktop on your phone for quick stuff

RDP is unmatched

I daily linux but this is one place windows shines in 2025

FreeBSD on all the network and app infra, of course

ix

ic

o\

Happy new year :)

hny

i think this weekend i'm going to really sit back and think about the network setup i have going on here heh

i have an old xeon 5560 1u that i think i'll use as a router just to have the 10gbit

Quick question about a.out(5) file format. It's documented that the struct is based on `unsigned long` ... does that mean that on 64-bit, the file's header is thus larger? (because of LP64)

Or is the manpage just very old, and I should read the fields as `uint32_t`?

The manual page is indeed old. As in, here for historical purposes only, since a.out format support went away in FreeBSD 11 (IIRC).

Yeah, I am aware. I need this for mostly-historical reasons, too ^^

(though I'm also considering ste^H^H^H adopting it for my own purposes --- not intended to be natively executed mind, it's just that using an existing format as a base saves me on a lot of documentation, assuming it's a good fit ofc)

DarkUranium: the manpage is wrong, look sys <sys/imgact_aout.h>

`uint32_t`, I see; thanks!

it may be academic since i don't think a.out was ever used on a 64-bit platform

True.

we were builidng and running a.out binaries in the past, whole FreeBSD OS was a.out-based

we didn't care at that time, at least me

yes, but ELF replaced a.out in 3.0, and 64-bit platforms didn't arrive until 5.0, so i don't know if an a.out format was ever defined for a 64-bit platform

actually maybe Alpha was 4.0

I think my server is compromised

wsky_ what makes you to think that?

Because whenever I connect a machine to the server’s vpn it gets compromised

British services are after me

Im screwed

I see...

British and polish services