It's quiet in here

freebsd is perfect and has zero issues. therefore, there is nothing to discuss.

fair enough

I believe none of the BSD's like my Ryzen 5 + Radeon desktop PC though. FreeBSD can't recognize more than 1 monitor, and generally behaves funny on it, whereas OpenBSD's sndio crashes after playing audio for a random amount of seconds, with the only fix being to reboot the PC. Didn't try NetBSD on it though.

On the other hand, all BSD's work very well on all my ThinkPads and PowerBooks.

remiliascarlet: BSD doesn't work great on myy OptiPlex 3050 too, sound doesn't work :/

even the beep command does nothing.

schizophrenic: Which BSD is that?

I had much less issues with sound on FreeBSD compared to Linux when I used that.

remiliascarlet: have you tried installing drm-kmod, xf86-video-amdgpu and loading amdgpu? I have Ryzens in a ThinkPad and Lenovo's desktop PC (ThinkCentre or something) and the only issue with multiple screens is that Xorg needs a restart when connecting/disconnecting additional screens.

erk: It's FreeBSD. (we are in #freebsd lol).

the sound card is detected by the kernel however beep command doesn't work

schizophrenic: I am apperently not awake enough at 11:44 after a holiday.

erk: take a coffee or something

schizophrenic: Do you get anymore stuff in your dmesg if you do something like "dmesg | grep hda"

Just got some lunch so I am already better.

yeah, I found bunch of other devices

It detected Realtek Audio Device

It just looks like the driver is not getting loaded, otherwise there should be some info about the pinout.

pinout?

You could try to add `snd_hda_load="YES"` to loader.conf.

So you could see how each output is set up.

you need to set a tunable for that, driver is loaded as it's reported in dmesg

added snd_hda_load="YES" to loader.conf

yuripv: what is tunable? how to configure it?

schizophrenic: now remove it from loader.conf, snd_hda is builtin in GENERIC

ohk

schizophrenic: see man snd_hda, search for pindump

ohkk

Does it only sayt that it is loading the driver if you have that set?

regis: Yes, I did.

And the desktop PC is a custom build, so not a ThinkCentre.

remiliascarlet: Doesn't really matter when it comes to CPU

remiliascarlet: Is amdgpu module loading properly? DRM?

erk: no it was even saying that previously when I didn't added it

another way to see if sound works cat <some file> /dev/dsp

ikt should make a sound of some sort

yuripv: I found "dev.hdac.%d.pindump", the man page says I have to set it to nozero value

voy4g3r2: echo $RAND > /dev/dsp

voy4g3r2: it didn't make *any* sound, even `beep` command isn't working

remiliascarlet: You wrote about "BSD" in general so FYI: I'm on FreeBSD 15-CURRENT but was using drm-kmod on 14-CURRENT way before it landed in ports. It's been literally years since Renoir GPU in Ryzen CPU works well for me. I have no experience with other GPUs than Renoir though

regis: Not sure. I didn't boot into FreeBSD on that machine for a long time now. And it's meant to be used as a gaming rig anyway, so.

Never heard of a Renoir GPU.

how could I change value of dev.hdac.%d.pindump?

This is the post-Vega GPU family, packed in at least 4000 and 5000 Ryzen series

schizophrenic: man page says it's sysctl, so sysctl dev.hdac.0.pindump=1

yuripv: termbin.com/vrp6

(just don't ask me about the output, that black magic is above my mortal skills :D)

lol I was just about to ask you what the output means

(some sysctl values are read-only or configurable only at boot time)

schizophrenic: now check dmesg, the output should be there

sysctl -d may shed some light on what's the output. Unlike in Linux, FreeBSD's sysctl is well-documented and sysctl -ad is a trove of information

yeah I can see the output there

however all the GPI%d pins are disabled

regis: syctl -ad gave me what I already knew "dev.hdac.0.pindump: Dump pin states/data"

schizophrenic: Yeah, that's -d. I'm just saying that sysctl -ad in FreeBSD is a great overview of configurables with basic explaination for every single tunable. When I was looking for it in Linux, most tunables had no descriptions what so ever

I agree, BSD in general has good docs than Linux

Linux documentations are specifically designed to be so horrible, you have to depend on search engines, communities, and StackOverflow.

Linux documentation is written by people who don't know how to write

and used by people that don't know how to read.

Kinda works ou

t

and a lot of the documentation that exists is third-party - written not by the developers, but by people from Debian.org

Or GNU.

GNU doesn't write man pages

they write for that horrible monstrosity called info(1)

That's extra fucked then.

i thought Elmur Fudd wrote that stuff

fwiw, I can't write either. (I was a C-student in English)

flunked out of college because ENG099 was too much for me

I have written some man pages for my own project. they're roughly in imitation of the BSD style

On one hand, Linux's modularity is fun because you can replace bloat with less bloat (or more bloat), but on the other hand, this is Linux's greatest weakness, because every configuration ends up in a mismatch.

GNU itself is bloat

The GNU guys are seemingly incompetent. I tried to follow the Linux From Scratch guide, first tool I had to compile was GNU's binutils, and the latest few versions literally cannot be compiled at all, so I had to resort to 6 or so versions older for it to finally compile.

And then the next step was compiling GCC, and I thought "meh, fuck this shit".

I will say I have had better luck rolling gcc than clang

but gcc is a pile of flaming dog waste

yes but building gcc is pretty much a question of running one script to get the dependencies then run configure then make

clang is a nightmare

half of the clang web pages describe building with cmake/make and the other half with cmake/ninja

really the clang doc is "how to build clang if you've been working on the code base for years and already have a working setup"

if it were up to me there'd be a basic C compiler written strictly in C, BSD-licensed, and set up to build with just a generic make tool

Much that I have autotools it simple and it works

have=hate

./configure && make && su -c 'make install'

done

ideally, it should just be make && su -c 'make install'

but eh

I don't have the mad skillz to write a compiler

If it were up to me I'd mandate using languages that can afford a decent amount of memory safety

also the clang people are quite hostile to outsiders

I haven't had any issues with llvm folk. Sometimes slow to answer, but that's always the case for open source projects

Hallo. I seem to remember recently learning about a tool that re-symlink libraries installed in base, important with upgrading major versions or in thin jails, but I can't remember what it is. Have I described it well enough? Anyone know what I'm talking about?

nope

Creating random symlinks in directories that are ports/package managed is a fools game.

That's what libmap is for.

random: I wonder how hard it would be to hack pdksh or one of its derivs into a ksh93...

inb4 "but ksh93 itself is already open source", the fewer licenses in base the better

Licca: i'm pretty sure ksh isn't in base. maybe you're thinking of the tests that depend on ksh?

I'm not talking about FreeBSD

a project of my own which needs to derive from one or another BSD will require "ksh93" in base

but ksh93 is a mess

like what the hell is that build system?

weird

aix has ksh93, only place i use it

Debian has it, lol

not by default?

it's in apt

if you install "ksh", it's ksh93

out of the box I think you only get dash and bash

Licca: Well written code should be compilable with any C compiler.

^

there's also 2 variants of ksh93

most unofficial Korn shells are ksh88

including bash

I have a very low opinion of pdksh

The original author became a usenet troll AND a Micro$soft employee

I've thought of writing my own Bourne shell, but I'm way out of my league

how low can you go?

what's the most minimal shell out there

I am using /bin/sh btw

there is osh (v6 shell)

then there's msh (Minix v7 shell)

do we have that in FreeBSD?

I got msh originally from some one-disk FreeBSD fork from 25 years ago called "PicoBSD"

wow you are using computer for so long

I wonder if there's any letter left to give to another non-POSIX Shell. We already have ash, bsh, bash, csh, dash, zsh, ksh, msh, osh, tcsh...

I have what I call "nash", but it's just NetBSD's /bin/sh recursively backported

(since it has elements of dash)

and fish

and oilsh (for texans)

Debian has posh

there's also yash (Watanabe shell) and mrsh

i do tend to prefer zsh these days, i feel like the completion is better implemented than in bash. also i like having PS1 with dynamic codes.

So we're already running out of letters.

nah. [a-z]+sh can fit as many as you like

Right, then now I'm going to make a jskdjsdkhdsfklghsfdghnsh.

Can't really make an ssh though, since that would conflict with Secure Shell.

and rsh already is overloaded

restricted shell or remote shell

Oh, I thought it would have meant "Rust Shell", which would fit with it being overloaded.

Memsafe shell

Because I tried some of the Rust rewrites before, and I always find them to be way too overengineered.

I feel like a *x should be written mostly in C and the rest, at the kernel level only, in ASM

remiliascarlet: you could make ssssssssssssssssssh the very secret secure shell

👵🏻

Like that Vim clone written in Rust of which I forgot its name for example, it's so bloated, it doesn't even feel like Vim anymore.

clearly written by someone who doesn't understand vi(1)

I think the bootloader should be written in ASM.

kinda has to be

That's the point.

bah, no worries. systemd will boot for you now

but I cut my teeth in the 8-bit world, 65SC02

you want primitive, you got it

Demosthenex: But systemd is almost a complete operating system.

All it has left to replace is the kernel.

I think they're working on that.

at that point, you're no longer running "Linux"

systemd-linuxd when?

You can already run GNU without Linux by using one of the forever experimental GNU Hurd distro's.

or BSD, or Solaris

remiliascarlet: its nearly windows. soon you'll need an antivirus

But those don't come with all the GNU coreutils.

systemd: converting linux to windoze, one system service at a time

that's just one package

Demosthenex: True, some time ago I even read they've been implementing a BSOD into systemd.

I feel like the canonical init system is System V-style (*gets shot*) but I suppose you could coax init(8) into doing that if you really wanted

this BSOD is actually helpful

it lets you page kernel panics IIRC

I want BSD, not BSOD! *gets shot*

remiliascarlet: wasn't the BSOD stuff inside the linux kernel? not systemd?

Licca: You can take a look at CRUX actually, that distro uses BSD-style init scripts.

remiliascarlet: also qr codes

I actually like the "runlevels"

it is funny to see solaris mentioned given the systemd takes a bunch of ideas verbatim from SMF

runlevels was fancy enough

but that's kinda antithetical to how y'all work lol

Grabunhold: news.itsfoss.com/bsod-linux

duncan: And apparently, the Windows source code is filled with code stolen from Linux, the BSD's, and Solaris.

But then again, we all know Microsoft doesn't give a single fuck about open source licenses.

I know that ftp.exe in Windows is derived from BSD

it is well-established that it includes BSD licensed code, but the notion it includes code from Linux proper is… unlikely given the GPL

same for CDDL unless they did some licensing gig

well, they could pinch from SVR4 without CDDL

hell, Microsoft legitimately owns some of the SVR4 code

Well, at least the BSD and ISC (in the case of OpenBSD) permits the re-use of code. GPL and CDDL don't.

At least, not in the way Microsoft did.

I have a DGAF attitude toward most of my code

I used to release code under GPL, then I switched to BSD, and now to ISC.

BSD and ISC are more or less the same, I just found ISC's wording much clearer.

unless I have a reason

I usually use UIUC

Strix, though, I went with the 2-clause BSD license because it just fits better

Hello, Grabunhold. I am ashamed to say I have not submitted that ticket yet. Give time till tomorrow, and then consider my initiative as failed :-)

ant-x: ah well, it's not like i've been very active either ;) summer hole i guess

at least i figured out the situation with my irc bouncer and nick registration to send you that memo :D

Good for you! So, you are running your own server with a bouncer on it?

ant-x: i'm using quassel-irc.org

I dunno why I want to chug some liquor when I see that name lol

maybe because it reminds me of "quaff" and "wassail" lol

and yes, the quassel core component has it's own server. I'm in the process of migrating that from linux to a (Ansible-managed) FreeBSD jail

Grabunhold, Quassel must have a server part, which you have to have running on some server machine, right?

Licca, I think of Lev Kassil.

Licca: "quassel" is a wordplay on a german verb, "quasseln". it's something like chitchat

ant-x: yeah, as I said, there is a server machine. my quassel core is using postgresql as a backend, but sqlite is supported, too.

I was not sure what you meant by "its own server." It might be a server maintained by some Quassel foundation... Thanks for the clarification.

quassel core as a service? :D not sure how many users quassel even has any more these days...

Grabunhold: you're on all the cool channels

Do you have a list of bluetooth devices that work on FreeBSD ?

that would be a forever incomplete list

GRRrrr - qt6 hauls in libwayland requiring wayland package and NO OPTION to SHUT IT OFF... wireshark needs it. [scream profanity]

Wayland is the thing that should not be

a *x system should use X Window

it could be streamlined to leverage its client/server nature with multi-core

X already has that

but NOOooo we have to do something that no longer has DISPLAY= whixch I need for embeddeddev so I always will use X11

yeah some optimization but there are still some stack bottlenecks that could use a bit o' tweeking

at least in older versions, won't know until I run the new stuff if it has been tweeked

I still have issue with new mate-panel crashing all panel apps. apparently fixed in github but not in ports or freshports

I think it is dbus-related. lots of logs but it's known already, so maybe if I can patch no need to update all of mate

just submit patch after test, and then let the normal cycle get updates in

well as much as it irritates me I should spend time fixing mate-panel instead of eliminating every last vestige of wayland...

Demosthenex: and the uncool ones as well! :D

that and getting the rest of packages built so I can get workstation 1 up and running

but we need to toss out all the old stuff so we can watch youtube videos without screen tearing! it's SOOOOOO important

sounds like a driver problem

I don't have tearing on X Window, and I have CPU-level graphics

with dual 1920x1080

drivers? (mate-panel issue was fixed 2 months ago according to github if that is what you referred to)

I was referring specifically to "screen tearing"

oh nevermind missed the snark. hweh

since I *did* have an issue with that once and it *was* a driver issue

nothing requiring Wayland ;p

VESA has issues, but usually you can have SDL do frame buffers and switch during monitor blanking. yeah

MPlayer can use OpenGL or VDPAU

right. Idonot reember what VDPAU is but I think it's driver-specific...

I think it's nvidia-related? but somehow my Intel on-CPU graphics seems to work with it

I added SDL support for mplayer

helps to read the config options (usually)

I wish mplayer2 were still around

the same enhancements as mpv but didn't mess with my muscle memory

I use mplayer most of the time, and mencoder. I have mostly gotten used to the weirdness

the main annoyance

is that seeking turns off pause

oh yeah - press any key un-pauses

mplayer2 changed that and mpv keeps that. but mpv messes with 20 years of muscle memory

all the switches are different, all the keybindings are different

hard to get screen snapshots also - at least the 2021 version

I end up using vlc to do that

Does someone publish a log of this channek somewhere? I got some advice on July 21 or 22 I think, and I didn't record it properly and would like to refresh my memory.

channel

gh00p: I don't publish any logs, but I do log everything for this exact reason. I can provide my logs from July 21st to 22nd. PM me if you'd like and we can off-channel this.

does rofi pkg on 14.1 crash?

nmz: Doesn't crash for me

you use it normally?

I sometimes use the calculator

hmm

so its a me problem

thanks

does wayland works with intel gpu ?