03:43:22 This age verifcation is stupid I just said that im 103 so I can watch Doom videos what makes little timmy not able to do the same ? 03:59:45 ./sigh 04:01:41 elivoncoder: sigh's 04:02:37 i wish they would bury age-verify in a concrete sarcophagus 04:03:14 thats better 04:03:34 elivoncoder: imagine if you had to get a commiter to place a file in /etc/ageverified 04:04:08 elivoncoder: sadly having people play with IT stuff with no real knowledge will always back fire 04:04:22 now if we get into this administration think it will be worse than the GPL thing 04:05:32 tbh i was hoping freebsd would be taking a firmer stance than our linux brethern 04:05:52 but i think at heart we all feel the same, keep the net open 04:06:31 i think we should limit or monitor young peoples internet access as theres some real weirdos out there the epstein stuff is a good example 04:06:38 however theres a better way than age verification 04:06:56 back in the 90's or early 2000's they wanted to introduce an internet passport, some kind of competence verification 04:07:20 Afterglow: we need that for a lot of things not just internet 04:07:27 true that 04:07:27 i just think of real life stuff thats age-gated, they always find a way 04:08:16 i can say the same with the freebsd cdc after being cursed and being told old and drunk and not one commiter engagged pretty much sums up how i feel about those things 04:09:08 whch is interesting becuase in order for me to get my bachelors in CS i have to take a class and answer questions 04:09:20 funny enough that site is down doesnt even resolve heh 04:09:40 but the system is broken is pretty much all aspects of everything 04:11:18 elivoncoder: some things can be bypassed just by changing your host to something outside the US 04:11:37 elivoncoder: oh but they want to ban VPN's 04:11:56 hence the sighs lol 04:12:34 elivoncoder: lets join #freebsd-signs 04:12:41 * cpet evil smirks 04:13:07 #general-sighs 04:13:18 #afterglow-sighs 04:13:38 lol, I won't join that one... almost weekend 04:14:11 i stopped caring about fridays and weekends since I turned 40 04:14:47 i can have a beer on mondays tues wed ... so why get excited when it's friday 04:14:49 :P 04:14:55 cpet truth, theyre all just days ending in y 04:15:28 or words that include day 04:15:55 provider will not update there backup servers to include newer cyphers 04:16:14 so I have to generate my normal kets plus a special rsa one just to please aging backups server :( 04:17:25 anyone want to test zenmap for me ? 04:18:13 there are free scanners you can use already? 04:18:31 been using zenmap since nmap was a thing 04:18:43 so what since 1996 04:20:45 nmap has been around for 28 yrs 04:25:35 elivoncoder: https://bz-attachments.freebsd.org/attachment.cgi?id=271039 13:49:18 i915 desktop users beware, after upgrading to from 15.0 to 15.1-RC2 i'm getting tons of GPU hangs that hard lock the entire system...there are a few bug reports about it 14:17:32 cullum: what is your setup? WM? 14:38:10 * CrtxReavr ponders how old the i910 & i915 platforms must be by now. 14:41:56 (so old that when I google for 'intel i910' the results are all for Intel core i9 10th gen.") 14:46:29 When I joined EMC in 2000, we were rolling out Dell Optiplex GTX100s with i910 chipsets as test clients by the hundreds. 14:47:27 This was right before rackmount servers became a common thing. 14:47:39 s/GTX/GX 15:06:01 sig`: im using KDE with wayland but according to bug reports people have also seen it with x11 15:06:04 https://github.com/freebsd/drm-kmod/issues/467 15:06:27 also https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=295625 15:24:33 I'm using X11 still but no I haven't seen this issue 16:41:15 so I noticed that https://cgit.freebsd.org/ports/tree/editors/mg/Makefile claims that the "master site" for mg is https://hydrus.org.uk/downloads/ which is a 403. it seems likely that it's meant to be https://hydrus.org.uk/download.html; however, this page doesn't mention mg at all 16:43:40 (debian lists http://homepage.boetes.org/software/mg/ which is even worse as the server isn't up) 16:52:33 MASTER_SITE is just part of the url for distfiles https://hydrus.org.uk/downloads/mg-20241008.tar.gz seems to exist according to curl --head 16:54:11 isn't it extremely suspicious to pull a text editor tarball from a web site that makes no mention of being the home for said text editor? 16:54:18 nimaje: Yep. I just tested and it downloads fine. 16:54:30 Strangely enough, there's no pkg for editors/mg. 16:54:38 does anyone use fwupdmgr 16:54:40 So, perhaps there was a fetching problem before. 16:55:00 the plot thickens! 16:56:28 Oh. Wait... Yes there is. 16:56:35 I was searching the wrong pkg repo. Haha. 16:56:56 mg and mg-static exist. 16:57:22 gentoo pulls it from github 16:57:27 no one can agree about where mg comes from 16:57:49 The only github code I could find appeared to be old(er) than the 20241008 version. 16:57:58 You could pull the code and compare it. 16:58:34 "To complain bitterly about this site, email www⊙hou" tempting! 16:58:53 And, yes, there are many different sources with different versions of "mg". I have no idea what the "proper" source would be. 16:59:34 hm, according to https://cvsweb.openbsd.org/checkout/src/usr.bin/mg/README as of the year 2000 it was "currently" maintained in the openbsd source tree 16:59:43 hm, WWW links to the openbsd manpage and that of course doesn't contain information where you should get a release of mg from 16:59:50 that's the closest thing to a canonical answer I can find 17:02:56 not sure I should trust an editor that's so cagey! 17:03:04 what secrets are you hiding, mg? 17:03:39 Ah... 17:03:42 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=271349 17:07:29 And here is where they migrated to the current upstream source: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/attachment.cgi?id=245817&action=diff 17:08:06 Err.. Here: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=274611 (didn't need the diff, I suppose) 17:10:48 Doesn't seem to explain how they came across this new source. But, says it's updating to the version in OpenBSD 7.4. So, perhaps that's where they got it? 17:43:26 The size of /var/crash should be ~size of memory? 17:44:15 Current is 19G, Dump failed. Partition too small (about 14331MB were needed this time). It needed 14G more? 64G machine. The latest that could ever be is 64G? 17:44:57 largest* 18:59:17 i blame those GFX card issue mainly due to old as hell firimwares 18:59:37 if the driver is expecting some specific firmware stuffs the driver will crash 19:00:08 i proved this by manually copying over recent firmware and my core 7 worked better than it did 19:00:30 but i still blame ek for my gfx issues 19:00:49 skered: not neccesarily mini dumps aren't 19:01:32 sometmes it only dumps the areas which were referenced not the full ram size if that was the case I would need 64gig for swap and well that aint happening 19:02:11 Hi, I’d like to ask something. 19:02:11 I’m currently dealing with this on Linux, but I’m curious how the equivalent situation would work on FreeBSD. 19:02:11 Suppose I have complete tar backups of the relevant filesystems/partitions — for example /, /boot, and /boot/efi — stored on an external disk. 19:02:11 Now suppose the internal laptop disk is completely destroyed and I replace it with a new one. 19:02:11 Would it be a valid recovery approach to install a fresh FreeBSD system on the new disk, let the installer create the partitions/filesystems, then wipe the contents of /, /boot, and /boot/efi, and restore my complete tar backups into those locations? 19:02:11 Would such a system boot and work normally afterwards, or would additional steps be required, such as editing /etc/fstab, reinstalling the bootloader, regenerating boot files, or fixing anything else? 19:02:35 yay back to dump and friends 19:03:46 that would work just make sure you preserve all the perms 19:04:46 not sure why you need to backup the whole system and not just the important parts such as /hme/user and /etc /usr/local/etc more than likey that all you really need 19:05:06 possible a dump of ports like i do 19:09:09 What about /opt where I do have my custom build-from-source apps, like The Lounge 19:09:45 But the real reason is that I don't know for sure what is importent and what isn't. 19:09:49 backups are tollored to the user 19:10:02 if thats part of your fs plan then yes back that up 19:10:14 the pint was there is no point in backing up everything when there is no need 19:11:30 anything that can not be easily replicated is what i call important 19:12:12 so my pictires of my dogs, my images of when my dog almost died when she had kennel cough my personal hacks to ports to include customs firmwares etc.. 19:12:40 i wouldnt classify /opt/ as important as it can be replicated so i would just opy over the conf files 19:14:19 too me its easier to back up a few txt files than 45 gigs of stuff that doesn't really need to be backed up if you reinstalled the os why would you spend the time to restore it again ? 19:16:53 So, for example, the /var directory contains various caches and state files for installed applications. Are you 100% sure those do not need to be backed up, and that after restoring the system everything will still work as usual without them? 19:17:13 caches are recreated 19:17:26 chances are all that crap will be renegerated when you run it again 19:17:47 Yes... but... there could be a crappy app which is storing there something more important, you can't be 100% sure, can you? 19:18:23 most of the time you worry about your ~/.config 19:18:32 than /var/ 19:19:52 i do a pkg info > backup then when I reinstall i do some magic for i in cat blah` do bleh pkg install $i 19:20:01 Yes, most of the time you do not need to back up caches. But what if you want to be 100% certain? 19:20:02 A real-life example: the IRC client The Lounge, probably the best one available right now, stores its SQLite database files in /etc/thelounge. They probably should not be there at all, but that is what it does. 19:20:02 why would I backup all that? 19:20:41 think I said above to backup /etc/ /usr/local/etc 19:21:17 in theory you should have installed them to /etc they should of been installed to /usr/local/etc as they are 3rd party apps 19:22:20 if you properly install custom apps 19:23:26 cpet: Ok, real-life scenario: suppose you have an IRC client like The Lounge, and you set it up on your computer as a system-wide service for all users. Then it should store its database files in… guess where… /var/lib. Now, if you don’t back up /var/lib, you will lose all IRC chat history from the past year. 19:23:50 you as the user should know 19:24:04 to me logically it would mean i need to backup /var/lib 19:24:34 cpet: and is that all to backup /var/lib? Or it isn't? Because I don't know 100%. 19:24:53 but if I was installing the loung locally i would install it to my home dir and not do linuxism by installing it to /opt 19:25:32 i have a copy of eggdrop and insppricd which are located in /home/chris 19:25:53 and znc 19:26:16 now 19:26:33 since I have znc installed would I backup everything no 19:26:40 i would backup ~/.znc 19:26:50 which would be backed up if i just backed up ~/chris 19:28:57 from my host system, i backup a handful of config files. i put thelounge in a jail, and I do snapshot and replicate that entire dataset, but i should probably more finely tune that, because there are only a few interesting files, like certificates, configs, and the sqlite3 db 19:29:42 why backups 23 gigs of useless crap when you can backup 3 megs ? 19:30:17 if I have 16 fossil repos cause I be damned that ll use git 19:30:25 and i have those 16 repos cloned 19:30:48 why would I backup those cloned repos when I can just backup the db's in /var/www/htdocs/fossil.unix.beer ? 19:31:05 really, i am only snapshotting and replicating jail datasets because I have space and don't want to spend time carefully backing up only minimal things. but in the event i need to recreate the jail, I'm going to retrieve the important items from the backup and just recreate the jail, insert the few relevant backed up items, etc. I agree that it 19:31:05 doesn't make sense to backup the entire pool in most cases 19:31:15 if I take those 16 repos thats alost 400 gigs of junk 19:31:20 while the dbs are like 67 gigs 19:32:42 scoobybejesus: ist the lounge some node stuff ? 19:33:17 yeah, it would be nice if it were just a static compiled binary. there aren't many alternatives out there 19:33:47 need to use yarn to install it, and then node to run it. 19:34:40 why would I run some node stuff vs kvirc or irssi ? 19:37:53 cpet: Because you could then use your favorite web browser - lynx - to be on irc with the lounge :-) 19:37:55 but im sure you can setup when db configs are stores 19:37:57 so theres more opportunity for supply chain attacks 19:38:14 rtprio: :D 19:38:58 I’m running it because I want a persistent IRC session hosted on my server that I can access from multiple devices (computers and phone) through a browser. It is basically a PWA. 19:39:26 you mist be < 30 ? 19:39:53 I didn't like ZNC when I tried it 10 years ago. But no, I'm almost 45. I arrive late to the command line world though 19:40:29 Soju is your candidate 19:42:05 A quick search suggests i'll need to choose my own client with using Soju, but otherwise, seems interesting... nice 19:43:28 i need to remeber that not everything just uses the computer at home 19:43:29 heh 19:44:18 scoobybejesus: For sure, but if you want a bouncer that is "just" a single binary, that's it 19:44:29 one of the reason why I dont like node or rusy or go 19:44:38 is the fact that it downloads precompiled packages from x site 19:44:46 and it is not uncommon for those to be compromised 19:44:51 so i do not use those 19:46:23 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://thehackernews.com/2025/03/seven-malicious-go-packages-found.html&ved=2ahUKEwjD467I7vCUAxXumSYFHdTYAEkQFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2g-3b0TWoG6sEXMqX5-Pra 19:46:48 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.stepsecurity.io/blog/20-popular-npm-packages-compromised-chalk-debug-strip-ansi-color-convert-wrap-ansi&ved=2ahUKEwjD467I7vCUAxXumSYFHdTYAEkQFnoECDEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw27Ne35T94W39MABYt5aRYH 19:47:09 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://x.com/MsftSecIntel/status/2061485730958848188&ved=2ahUKEwjD467I7vCUAxXumSYFHdTYAEkQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3pP4REoE4PmWIZKAsZsypY 19:47:18 but you don't remove tracking parameters from links 19:47:20 ironic 19:47:39 oh tracking is fine though 19:47:42 also why copy google links instead of direct ones 19:48:06 cant please them all i guess 19:50:57 JurassCZ: If you're using ZFS now, just do something like this: https://it-notes.dragas.net/2024/09/16/moving-freebsd-installation-new-host-vm/ 19:51:21 Snapshot and copy to a file, then, create the new install/disk and dump the snapshot on it. 19:51:51 You can snapshot to file on a scheduled basis and be ready for a root ZFS data dump back to disk at any time. 19:52:15 i dot think he uses zfs 19:53:49 but then again thats way to complex for a simple thelounge instance and a few configs 19:55:05 They're looking for direct disk backup/restores, though. That would be my recommended way. 19:55:31 Or, dump/restore. Whatever floats the ol' boat. 19:55:54 ek: are we even allowed to say dump ? 19:56:09 tar up all needed dirs and compress em ;) 19:56:14 I think so. I'm gonna go take a dump and think about it. 19:56:35 * f451 is a fan of dump & restore for ufs partitions 19:56:41 f451: why use tar when you can xz 19:56:53 ek: i am offended by that 19:57:03 That was the intent! ;) 19:57:12 tar czf $thing.tar pathname 19:57:27 thing 19:57:28 there is also newbie-friendly clonezilla 19:57:30 sorry 19:57:32 did f451do a thing 19:57:43 boot from it, use the defaults, boot from it again, use the defaults 19:57:47 amlor_: thats linux we dont want that 19:58:16 amlor_: I use Clonezilla via PXE for initial backups. It seems like it would be more user-friendly, but it's kind of not. 19:58:17 tbf i just make the tar and compress it with whatever 19:58:37 ek: it's more user-friendly than other suggestions tho 19:58:37 f451: like you should 19:58:43 cpet: who are "we"? 19:58:53 amlor_: one of us 19:59:09 we the people 19:59:14 us 20:00:00 you remind of of my instructor who got upset cause i didint address her by her pronouns 20:00:22 amlor_: The options are good and it works just fine. But, without knowing exactly what you want or what the clonezilla options do, it can be a bit overwhelming. The learning curve isn't terribly gentle. It'll take some reading. 20:00:59 ek: half the people here dont do that 20:01:05 I'm not saying Clonezilla is a bad option. Just that it's isn't already provided (3rd party) and also requires research. 20:01:10 ek: last time I said google it people got upset 20:01:18 and i think someoens even said thats not real help 20:01:32 and would rather have a human help 20:01:49 cpet: Yeah. Google it for them. 20:02:12 i did then someoens got upset cause I didnt take the tracking shit off 20:02:18 ek: people complain too much man 20:03:07 Haha. 20:03:10 ek: its free support so youll get whatever free provides and time is money so tkaing those tracking links off would make that help cost more than it should be 20:03:39 You get what you pay for? 20:04:52 * f451 takes tracking links off because it makes the url easier to parse by others 20:05:06 JurassCZ, Please read https://wiki.freebsd.org/MasonLoringBliss/ZFSandGELIbyHAND with a mind to restoring from backup. Also please read https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/howto-freebsd-zfs-madness.31662/ with a mind to restoring from backup and that verbaden's article is from 2012 but still mostly applies. 20:05:20 also in firefox it's easy: ctrl-u 20:06:01 mason++ 20:06:17 f451: takes too much time man 20:06:29 ctrl-u ? lol! 20:07:12 will you pay me the 16 secons of time it took me to do that ? 20:07:26 * cpet sends f451a invoice 20:15:24 Warning - the following instructions will ravage your machine and then eat all the food in your refrigerator, and unlike the dwarves, they won't be kidding about breaking your dishes. 20:15:28 thats just mean 20:16:23 nice to see a well made wiki page though 20:17:06 i should edit it and put an image of a dwarf breaking dishes 20:17:43 most of you guys run latest, or quarterly 20:17:51 latest 20:18:10 correction since someoens else got upset when I said we 20:18:13 let me rephrase 20:18:17 I run latest 20:18:54 haha was zfs consider madness back then/ 20:19:05 still is 20:19:53 ek: yeah I don't disagree with you. there is easier such software, but it's usually proprietary 20:20:21 elivoncoder: I'm running latest on zfs on both personal servers 20:20:51 I was running quarterly on a thinkpad but switching to latest borked plasma' 20:21:32 also a couple of months ago I switched my linux desktops to zfs 20:21:53 did you borked those ? 20:23:12 I did not install freebsd on top of them so no :) 20:23:36 so you have Linux and FreeBSD ? 20:23:52 I tried running fbsd it on my gaming rig but the installer won't even boot 20:24:00 cpet: yes 20:24:23 my guess is that rx 9060 xt is too new for freebsd 20:24:47 i blame firmwares they are old and probably wont be updated any time soon 20:25:03 amlor_: next time try downloading the linux firmwares by hand 20:25:16 and hacking the ports 20:25:21 I'll keep it in mind 20:25:22 see if it works 20:25:57 if you have updated drivers yet old firmwares kind of useless 20:26:09 can you define 'installer wont even boot'? 20:26:14 i have a core 7 gen 14 server which would turn my screen into an inverted zelda theme 20:26:25 like, the stock installer wouldn't care about your gpu at all 20:26:39 it doesn't do drm drivers, it just drives vga or efifb 20:26:55 kevans_: im sure there was more too it than that 20:26:58 the bootloader menu is working, but kernel shits itself with a generic error right at the start 20:27:25 i'd love to see what that error is if you're open to trying to boot it again 20:27:36 I don't remember exactly what error it was but when troubleshooting it was appearing in wildly different situations and over the years 20:28:00 I'll try right now 20:29:37 i run thi desktop with a rx6550 20:30:14 trying to figure out when rx 9060 xt would've been added to amdgpu, because it could be that you wouldn't have functional drm anyways even if you did get it installed 20:30:43 but that's a separate fact frm the installer not booting, we're more than happy to do classic framebuffers 20:31:25 well, if I can believe google's AI summary (which I probably can't), we'd probably need drm from 6.15+ 20:31:54 https://docs.kernel.org/gpu/amdgpu/amd-hardware-list-info.html 20:34:04 https://forum.level1techs.com/t/amd-rx-9060-xt-not-initializing-amdgpu-failed-with-error-22-black-screen-on-gpu-boot/249327 20:34:08 heh 20:34:35 if it has issues on Linux it wil have ssues on FreeBSD 20:35:55 https://img.amlor.at/zb2rhbvaEqhs1LSA97CQ94huyMZBgHUHkvxEUFxL8imbXk3gB_d2ae053f91295d0d9c6be2e2c3e030a0cb93865c.jpg ah it doesn't even error out 20:35:58 just freezes 20:36:11 amlor_: when you see th system show the logo 20:36:14 press space bar 20:36:18 and type in boot -v 20:36:33 should show something before it freezes 20:37:23 ok 20:37:41 but one rule that I think people dont understand is dont run top notch HW on FreeBSD especially gfx cards 20:38:14 makes sense, but things like that never stopped me from experimenting 20:38:17 now im not sure why you would buy a 700 card and run bsd or linux on it as game wise both dont have that many games but i guess if you have money to toss 20:38:33 that is complete bullshit 20:38:40 i say the sae for those who buy a mac book and install Linux on it 20:39:00 proton covers pretty much everything I need when native options are not available 20:39:22 at least on linux 20:39:46 amlor_: why is it loading /COPYRIGHT? is this Ventoy? 20:39:53 if it takes more than 2 hours to make a game work with those wine front end things 20:39:56 i just boot windows 20:40:18 kevans_: yes, but I used a separate usb drive too 20:40:37 and ventoy does support 15.0 20:40:39 was it the same error with a separate drive? Ventoy is cursed in other ways 20:40:50 cpet: that is also bullshit 20:40:54 like, it overwrites /COPYRIGHT with its own metadata and does funky shit with that to try and boot 20:41:01 iirc 20:41:02 99% of the time the game runs out of the box 20:41:20 amlor_: that is utterly bull shit 20:42:12 and also no game is worth using w*ndows 20:42:32 cpet: dude I'm gaming on linux for decades now 20:42:40 think your real problem is biased toward prop software 20:42:50 nothing wrong with Windows 20:42:59 steam is proprietary and games are proprietary 20:43:10 windows is as well 20:43:23 that's the least of the problems of windows 20:43:41 I don't know why we are having this discussion like it's 2005 or something 20:44:23 that is utterly bull shit 20:44:51 I don't care if software is proprietary if it does what it's supposed to do and don't fight the user at every step 20:45:03 which is not true for windows 20:45:08 cpet: is it possible for you to be in this channel without starting a pointless argument with everyone who asks a question? it's very tedious when my entire scrollback here is just you arguing with someone 20:45:46 sorry, that's my fault also. I should not engage that 20:46:18 ivy: where were you yesterday when I was called an old drunk? 20:46:34 probably doing something productive 20:46:34 ivy: funny how its only when a specific time that something affects just x that soeones complains 20:47:29 I think some grass touching should happen 20:47:52 amlor_: ill get bored eventually 20:47:57 kevans_: tbh i was probably playing games on my Linux desktop. but that's still more productive than arguing with people on IRC :-) 20:48:42 what game? 20:48:46 yeah, i wish i would learn that lesson 20:48:50 :-p 20:49:10 ok lets make it interesting 20:49:14 lets take a vote 20:49:22 oh no 20:49:24 how many people want me gone vs how many people want me to stay 20:49:26 be honest now 20:49:34 count me in, begone 20:49:39 thats 1 20:49:53 i need 10 to make it count 20:49:54 i didn't say you should "be gone", i just want my entire scrollback to not be filled with 20:50:06 like, if someone is wrong on the internet, you can just ignore them 20:50:35 wheres the fun in that ? 20:50:43 whats the point in a silent channel ? 20:50:53 cpet: the fun is that other people can use this channel besides you 20:51:11 nothing stops other people from chatting 20:51:21 cpet: i usually look at scrollback when i log in in the morning to see if anyone asked questions i can answer, that's much more difficult to do when the scrollback is just full of one person 20:51:52 so it's about you vs the actuall issue of me talking 20:51:55 i see ok 20:52:06 admittedly i had to stop reading the scrollback at least a few months ago... i don't recall exactly when, though 20:52:59 friendly reminder #freesd-social 20:53:19 typo 20:53:22 #freebsd-social 20:54:15 I thought I put cpet on ignore. 20:54:45 oh man, that was probably a fun conversation to read for people that do have cpet ignored 20:55:30 I did already! But he's evaded it by changing his hostname. 20:56:47 :( 20:56:50 And then he also said something transphobic... about an instructor and pronouns? It is not that hard to speak of people respectfully, but it does mean respecting, within reason, how they would like to be referred to, and where it doesn't involve absurd honorifics, that's within reason. 20:57:50 I had a nice convo with the dean about that 20:58:20 told her how am i supposed to know this if I didnt see anyting before I got an email responded that mentioned those 20:58:35 after that i got an apology email form that said instructor 20:58:56 but you have me on ignore so it doesnt matter any more now does it 21:46:43 Having an argument in the channel stops other people from chatting. It's the same if you walk into a room and people are arguing - you don't interrupt or engage. 21:51:36 rwp spet ek: thanks all, i have found probably the answer, the best and prettiest article on doing backup I've ever found in unix: https://www.debian.club/en/administration/backup 21:51:47 *cpet