02:27:37 ek: sorry for delay was cooking and "touching grass", it is Bug 295726 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=295726 02:27:47 which looks to be confirmed, different steps and same result :) 03:07:22 voy4g3r2: Yep. Problem was confirmed. Now, time to find a fix. 06:29:22 so I finally upgraded my system from 14.3 to 14.4, nothing special. But now my host won't communicate anymore with my jails. Anything on the bridge can ping eachother and everything 'outside' the host, but not the host itself. Nothing changed in the configs of ipfw, jail.conf nor rc.conf (I diff'd this with configs from a year ago), so I'm totally at loss here. 06:29:56 things tried: reboot (twice), removed and added again the host interface from/to the bridge 12:11:05 Hrm, upgraded my rpi400 to 15 and now I have no console. Only kernel messages show up. :-/ 12:12:15 Oh, boot_serial defaults to YES now .. interesting. 12:34:06 diving some deeper into the host-cannot-communicate-with-jail-vv issue, I found out that the jails tries to connect (to the saltmaster) by sending a SYN, the host responds with SYN-ACK, but that is never received by the jail. Although ipfw is set to OPEN, i've flushed the rules with ipfw -q -f flush (to have only one rule: allow all), but that also doesn't work 12:47:28 MAC_DO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA-TNsVG9IY 12:52:24 Afterglow: try turning off hardware checksum on the nic? 12:53:13 rtprio, how do I do that? 12:54:03 and more important: is there something changed between 14.3 and 14.4 regarding hardware checksums? 12:57:54 sorry man, i don't have the changelog memorized 12:57:58 hmmm, I just switched off checksum checking, and indeed it starts working 12:58:19 ifconfig -rxsum -txsum bce0 12:58:33 i only mentioned it since it sounded like dvl was having an identical problem 12:59:04 rtprio: That sounds wild though. 12:59:24 I think we have enough evidence for a PR 12:59:45 I will test later today (Just going a $WORK update). 13:00:25 I would never think of this solution, thanks rtprio and dvl 13:00:45 dvl, let me know the PR once you file it, I'll add my experience 13:01:01 Afterglow: me file it? you file it. ;) 13:01:31 i've had them off on my bce/lagg vlan bhyve box forever, it didn't occur to me until i saw the toot 13:09:28 rtprio: was a restart required, or merely the `ifconfig` change? 13:15:24 just an ifconfig change 13:16:10 I suppose this isn't permanent, i.e. checksum are 'on' again after a reboot? 13:19:48 yeah, you can do it on the fly 13:20:13 ifconfig_bce0="up -tso4 -rxcsum -txcsum" is what I have in mine 13:21:06 disabling checksums enabled traffic to and from jails again, however now the jails have issues communicating with the outside world (other than the host). have to revert 13:22:13 how do you have your jail networking set up? 13:23:23 re0 -> bridge -> jail (vnet) 13:23:31 jail = plural 13:26:53 hm, why would checksumming on the outside interface affect networking between the host and the jails? that networking should never reach that interface only the epairs and the bridge 13:29:25 Afterglow: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=295057 13:29:28 maybe that is related? 13:30:01 gonna have a look 13:30:36 oh hey it turns off txsum on the epair too 13:30:59 that kept me busy for a week+ 13:33:36 nimaje: It's a cloned interface? Is that why? 13:40:47 iRobbery: I'm not using NAT. Just trying to find out which is the outgoing interface of a jail, is that the one visible from the host, or the one in the jail itself? 13:42:59 usually disabling it on the host outgoing nic does magical things for jail networking 13:44:45 Is it possible to get tab completion for `pkg install ` with zfs? 13:45:31 kevans_: it actually did, however after that my jails are not able to communicate outside the host anymore 13:46:42 just tried disabling txcsum on either and both epair interfaces, but that does nothing 13:49:13 ah okay not using NAT, i didnt have any issues with regular bridge use 13:53:09 Hund: how does `pkg install` tab completion relate to `zfs`? 13:53:27 dvl: lol. I meant zsh. :D 13:53:43 Afterglow: what about "ifconfig_bce0="up -tso4 -rxcsum -txcsum" ? 13:53:51 Hund: ;) 13:54:10 Potato, potato. ;P 13:54:40 what does the tso4 do? 13:58:12 Afterglow: perhaps rtprio knows 13:58:47 disables tcp segmentation offloading for ip4 14:07:12 dvl, nope 14:07:34 Afterglow: nope, to what? 14:08:52 again: disabling rxcsum/txcsum enables traffic from the host to the jails, however completely disables traffic to/from the jails that comes from other machines on the network 14:12:38 did you do it on just your primary, or also the epair 14:12:51 just the host NIC 14:14:25 wouldn't hurt to try both 14:18:17 just did that for all 15 jails, and indeed it works now: so -rxcsum -txcsum on the host NIC and all epairxa's 14:28:40 horray 14:31:59 yes, I wouldn't have slept tonight if this wasn't fixed ('work around') 15:23:24 getting Error 503 Backend fetch failed from lists.freebsd.org 15:23:59 f451: seems ok now 15:24:21 i'll try again - error was from 3 mins ago 15:24:36 ah it just loaded 15:24:39 ty 15:51:26 has anyone ever used a RS232 DB9 to USB serial cable before 15:51:31 ive been playing with it but freebsd sees nothing 15:51:37 nothing in dmesg, no usb device shows up even 15:51:45 serial server side is initialised and seems to work 15:51:47 yeap 15:52:05 i have 2 and I use it to have a retro connection to my freebsd machine 115 bause speeds 15:53:56 cpet: what should happen when I plug it in 15:54:05 I have bought a JCOM adapter to plug into a consumer motherboard 15:54:12 that has initalised fine on my server 15:54:15 I see /dev/tty0 15:54:15 dmesg should show some magic 15:54:17 /dev/ttyu0 15:54:22 for the server 15:54:26 and uart0 shows up under dmesg 15:54:41 I changed my /etc/ttys from /dev/ttyU0 (was using a ttl cable before) to /dev/ttyu0 15:54:47 and kill -HUP 1 15:54:55 so init reloads the getty 15:55:07 https://docs-archive.freebsd.org/doc/11.4-RELEASE/usr/local/share/doc/freebsd/handbook/usb-device-mode-terminals.html 15:55:26 however when I plug a serial cable which came in the post today into the DB9 port, and plug the usb end into my laptop 15:55:29 no dmesg, no nothing 15:55:31 cant see a thing 15:55:51 you can use tmux as well 15:56:18 you have to boot the kernel to enable that 15:56:59 cpet: wdym? 15:57:07 I dont think you get the point 15:57:19 when I plug the cable (not the JCOM adapter side) into my laptop 15:57:21 dmesg sees nothing 15:57:24 think it's https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/serialcomms/ 15:57:32 scroll towards the bottom of page 15:57:36 I have read that one 100x mate 15:57:42 i would paste her but people complain about everything so 15:57:46 you get to read :) 15:58:20 cpet: you seem to still be talking about the server side 15:58:22 I am not 15:58:24 I am talking about the client 15:58:49 you connect to the console using cu or tmux 15:58:56 I have played with ttl cables, and serial before but this is the first time using a RS212 DB9 to usb cable to try to hook up a RPI to a DB9 cable on the server 15:59:02 however you have to set the kernel to set it up 15:59:19 cpet: no shit, please listen to me, there is no device, there is no entry in dmesg, there is nothing to signify I plugged in the usb side to my laptop 15:59:22 nothing at all... 16:00:22 echo "-P" > /boot.config 16:00:32 man boot.config 16:00:51 polarian: dont speak to me that way 16:00:54 i am trying to help you 16:00:57 sorry... 16:01:06 now you can go find your own ways now 16:02:00 cpet: the -P flag is for freebsd to output to serial 16:02:19 this is input as I keep trying to explain abov 16:02:22 above* 16:04:07 well I have a usb serial cable i make my system boot to the serial console then I use a client to connect to it 16:04:20 that client is tmux 16:04:35 anyways you dont want to discuss it further, and I apologise for the rude response. But I explained already I read the docs you were citing, and you just kept saying RTFM in a nice way. 16:04:47 cpet: but surely something should show up when you plug it in? 16:05:02 you said uart0 and such show 16:05:10 thats server side 16:05:21 serial console is as stupid as it gets freebsd isnt going to tell you you have a connection! 16:05:39 cpet: but usb isnt, so if a usb device pops up it should have an output in dmesg 16:06:02 unless what im missing here is that the usb connector is used but not the protocol 16:06:04 hmmm 16:06:10 what device is this 16:06:19 you cant just go buy any device and expect it to work in freebsd 16:06:33 you have to read up and investigate which are the ones that are specifically supported 16:07:21 okay so, server side I am using a startech JCOM adapter, which plugs into the 9 pin COM port on the motherboard and screws into the PCI mounts on the case. This provides a male DB9 port. I thought I had a DB9 serial cable, but it was male, and I needed a female one, so I bought one and it arrived today, I plugged the female side into the server, and then the usb into my laptop and then... nothing 16:07:28 thats what I dont get 16:07:43 cpet: tested it with a family members window device, nothing there either 16:07:46 sees no device... 16:07:50 in order for you to connect two devices together 16:07:57 you will need a null modem cable 16:08:14 they sell adapters at startech 16:08:39 ah that would explain it 16:08:53 and I already kinda knew this but I dont know why I considered this situation to be different 16:09:03 https://www.startech.com/en-us/cables/scnm9fm1mbk?srsltid=AfmBOorDBtE0dAWFVhE0B7dmEnykQ6V1NmvxCSOQnXnLmvowwvHcA0fS 16:09:28 you can buy the cable or the adapter that you connect a rj45 cable to it 16:10:06 or you can return what you got and ge the USB null modem cable 16:11:41 i would invest in a IPKVM instead 16:11:48 cpet: actually this *should* be a null modem cable 16:11:56 I wonder if the manufacturer ripped me off ;p 16:12:28 i find it more obvious you bought the wrong thing 16:13:10 you need a serial device, the cable and some gender changers 16:14:16 polarian: are you sure you didn't just plug two null modems into each other? 16:14:39 cpet: you can get cables which are null modem with usb port attached to it, but what I think I have fell for is the good old chinese rip off 16:15:06 dont be ignorant everything is made in china 16:15:13 even your beloved iphone 16:15:18 cpet: I am aware of that lol 16:15:32 but its a common strategy to sell the wrong thing... a proper null modem cable is £40 16:15:43 from startech that is 16:15:46 if you are being cheap 16:15:51 then you shouldnt bother with this 16:16:03 i sent almost 100 for a cable 16:16:05 if you could link all of the parts you acquired that'd be useful 16:16:33 cpet: also why not KVM? because thats less fun! 16:16:35 kevans_: yeah will do 16:16:42 if I can find them again :p 16:17:25 kevans_: kind of stopped caring after he said "no shit" and then bashed my doc links 16:17:32 null modem flips tx/rx, so if you accidentally used two instead of 1 + gender changer then that'd do ir 16:18:15 i got the adapter and a rj45 cable that i switched to a null modem 16:18:26 probably way more than what he is expecting to spend 16:18:43 kevans_: https://www.startech.com/en-gb/cables/plate9m16 this is being used to plug into the JCOM port on the motherboard 16:18:58 now I assume you need to plug in a nullmodem adapter or cable into this 16:19:06 yeap 16:19:23 yeah I got bitten by buying the cheapest thing on ebay :p 16:19:37 I have been sent a through cable 16:19:46 I can probably bullshit my money back because they misdescribed the item :p 16:20:07 I wonder though 16:20:11 https://www.startech.com/en-gb/cables/nm9ff 16:20:12 what if I plug it into this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/306912809411 16:20:19 oh 16:20:24 literally sent me what I was going to send :p 16:20:28 xD 16:20:43 there are nice lower profile ones, too 16:20:53 and this is why I still goto the store 16:20:57 knowledge wise, the reason a null modem is needed is because you need to cross the rx and tx's right? 16:20:57 vs buying it online 16:21:07 cpet: cant in the UK 16:21:07 https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=1203&utm_term=&utm_campaign=Shopping+%7C+Backstop&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&hsa_acc=6614305189&hsa_cam=20583677266&hsa_grp=152517338783&hsa_ad=674878479249&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=aud-2260488647513:pla-2480572974860&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20583677266&gbraid=0AAAAAD_Thz6WqzliBYgDnMAxZ1rhAVcGD&gclid=CjwKCAjwxITRBhBYEiwA6m 16:21:08 yeap 16:21:09 we sell fuck all irl 16:21:13 Zm7YrzChOx8YxLWjGUUysnOQ2dSG-o78Tpn7yqDhVOT4FkFoiLGCLYPBoCtZ8QAvD_BwE 16:21:15 we cant even buy thermal paste without ebay/amazon 16:21:16 holt sjit sorrt 16:21:16 holy shit, sorry 16:21:17 its fucking ridiculous 16:21:25 it makes me want to start my own tech store in London :p 16:21:41 and stock bits and bobs you need to pick up quickly, and you cant get without amazon 16:21:42 i herd horror stoeis when I worked off shore 16:22:03 thermal paste, screws for laptops and desktops (most hardware stores in UK dont go small enough) etc 16:22:12 all stuff u *must* buy online in the UK 16:22:20 and wait a week for it to arrive if you boycott Amazon like I do :p 16:22:33 sounds like rural US =) 16:22:35 like i said if you cheap out you gwt what you pay for 16:22:39 anyways cpet I am sorry for being pissy earlier, I got frustrated, I didnt mean to be a dick to you 16:22:46 kevans_: hah 16:23:15 polarian: people like you are the reason why I stopped helping people 16:23:21 nearest place for stuff like this is about a two hour drive for me (one way), which isn't great for just needing one part 16:23:42 i got most of my stuff at bestbuy 16:23:54 and I was surprised this USB serial port actually worked 16:23:56 cpet: sorry :( 16:24:11 you dont exactly listen to what people say though... 16:24:12 polarian: doesnt bother me heh your the one suffering not me 16:24:27 polarian: theres a reaosn why I get a disbaility check in the mail every month 16:24:29 oh wait, the closest down actually does have a best buy 16:24:36 cpet: :/ 16:24:46 and you don't have to continue being a dick after they tried to apologize at least twice 16:24:57 in anycase im sorry, I am usually more calm but somehow you really managed to piss me off xD 16:25:06 i used to car when I would work and people would go I cant understand you and i would go and hang them a card 16:25:17 now i dont then dont understand me i just tell go talk to this other person 16:25:30 kevans_: who me? 16:25:38 no, cpet 16:26:29 im sure hell get over it 16:27:28 if you set the speed to 9600 itll scrool like if it was 1984 16:29:40 > knowledge wise, the reason a null modem is needed is because you need to cross the rx and tx's right? 16:29:47 yeap 16:30:07 you can make your own using rj45 cables 16:30:22 you can cut the wires and do some soldering 16:30:51 I did that with ttl cables 16:31:04 issue is, I didnt quite think it through when I full disk encrypted my server 16:31:12 https://www.startech.com/en-gb/cables/gc98mf 16:31:16 and the only way to get output to serial from loader, is with a uart interface 16:31:17 thats what I was looking for 16:31:40 most people get encryption wrong 16:31:40 hmm I wonder if pcie serial cards pop up as uart 16:31:44 especially in a house hold 16:31:52 where the only other person using the pc is you 16:32:05 from the looks of the dmesg, it seems its acpi which presents the uart interface 16:32:14 so imma go with it must be provided by the motherboard? 16:32:26 if the mobo has a serial connector it will 16:32:28 or can you slap a pcie card and get a uart interface? 16:32:34 everything is run past acpi these days 16:32:54 cpet: mine does so not an issue, its just the header on the mobo needs adapting which I already did, I just fucked up and bought the wrong cable cause im a cheap bastard and didnt pay attention :p 16:32:55 you can 16:33:01 interesting 16:33:04 but if there is no driver support 16:33:09 yeah yeah 16:33:17 you wont get anything this is why you need to look at which cards are actually supported 16:33:24 and this is where apropos is your freind 16:33:26 fun with drivers 16:33:47 so using a through cable and a null modem is cheaper, but I wonder if its better to not cheap out and just buy the damn cable? 16:34:00 or do I cheap out again :3 16:34:03 i like building my own cable 16:34:09 but i would just buy the cable 16:34:26 tbf I have a second server soooooo 16:34:30 I buy both and see what I prefer 16:34:34 :D 16:34:56 for someone who has government payments, you seem to be very happy to spend money 16:34:59 any reason why ssh is not a valid use ? 16:35:16 my server infra is old hardware I have salvaged from broken stuff 16:35:32 cpet: because I dont want to boot a freebsd system, ssh into it, and then decrypt the main system 16:35:37 added headache 16:35:37 polarian: the cable adpater was like 45 bucks 16:35:46 thats like 16:35:50 1/2 of what I can afford to spend per month 16:36:08 thats what credit cards are for 16:36:15 ... 16:36:21 pay 45 now pay it back next month 16:36:31 what if you cant pay it back next month 16:36:37 and that is how long term debt is created :p 16:36:43 then you shouldnt even have a server unning heh 16:44:52 cpet: servers are my life 16:45:02 a dark cold dusty room with lots of cables is where I thirve 16:45:13 and doing things the easy way is never my priority :) 16:46:20 thats pretty much 99% of hobiests 16:49:53 polarian: mine sits under my tv 16:51:34 polarian : cold? you need older hotter hardware. ;) 16:52:14 i blew up my radiator when I was learning to do liquid cooling 16:52:28 to be fare alcohol was involved while learning 16:52:49 dvl: well in the summer its boiling, but London winters can get pretty cold 16:52:54 and I like to keep my window open 24/7 16:53:11 so it can be lashing rain and 3C out, and i will still have my window open :p 16:53:21 polarian: People often forget how far north London is. Long summer days. 16:53:45 dvl: what? London is not far north unless you are from Brighton or something xD 16:54:02 cpet: maybe thats what im missing, should have cracked a pint of Guinness *sigh* 16:55:43 polarian: Not relative to the country. I mean relative to the rest of the world. There's still lots farther north. But most of the world population is south. 16:55:52 ah yeah 16:55:58 if you don't already have a null modem adapter and you don't mind trying to hack the cable around, seems fine? otherwise the adapters are reasonably ok if you don't plan on the cable moving a lot that often 16:56:09 I would live further North but their politics dont really go well with mine 16:56:18 and they dont tend to like foreigners 16:57:05 we used a lot of null modem adapters at $oldjob and slowly migrated to null modem cables for most of those applications, but that's because they were plugged into TVs and saw a lot of movement, which kinda fucked with them 16:57:47 I miss having a decent serial aggregator. 16:58:37 kevans_: the null modem cables cost a fortune though 16:58:40 its £30 at least ;( 16:59:06 thats like... 3-4 pints of beer :( 16:59:20 polarian: You can crimp one yourself cheaper. 16:59:30 a 20x500ml box of club mate is £40 16:59:37 if I threw in an extra tenner 16:59:41 I could have enough club mate for a month :( 16:59:43 yeah, i'd go for the adapter if that's a deal-breaker; you're not going to be replacing them all that often, and maybe never 16:59:50 mason: yeah im an idiot, maybe one day :p 17:00:08 kevans_: all I need is to decrypt my servers :p 17:00:10 polarian: Crimpoer will cost a little but it'll be satisfying doing it. 17:00:25 mason: welp maybe one day :p 17:00:30 right now I just need to get this done 17:01:12 Hi all, I have a question, mostly out of curiosity - there is command dump mentioned in the Handbook Backup section. I'm just curious, why would anybody used that instead of cp, tar or rsync, what are its advantages? 17:02:24 JurassCZ: you mean zfs send/recv? 17:02:50 you are going to need to be more specific what command you are referencing :) 17:03:29 polarian: no, I mean dump/restore commands. I know there is zfs send/recv, but I'm more curious about that old 70s command "dump", because it's in the doc. 17:03:56 JurassCZ: dumping and restoring is just exporting/importing zfs datasets iirc 17:04:02 what people usually do to backup is send/recv 17:04:19 this allows you to clone volumes between zfs pools 17:04:27 or to copy over snapshots 17:04:38 then if you need to recover, the snapshot can be pulled from the remote server to restore 17:04:58 polarian: yes I know they use send/recv, I know that, but I'm curoius about that ultra-oldschoold command called "dump" :D It's in the Handbook, it says "Use it for backups" :D 17:04:59 this is different from cp/rsync because it versions the backups 17:05:08 JurassCZ: oh then idk 17:05:12 sorry I misunderstood what you were asking 17:09:14 JurassCZ, The classic Unix dump command operated on file systems rather than files. That made it more like the zfs-send command in operation. More efficient. 17:09:57 dump was designed to dump a file system to tape. Writing to tape needed to be a streaming operation. Data needed to be in a continuous stream rather than file by file. 17:11:38 The other feature of dump is to incrementally dump data after the date of the previous full dump backup as an incremental. Again more efficient on tapes. Usually you would do a full backup say once a week and then six days of incrementals. 17:12:32 These days dump/restore is probably museum piece information having been replaced by other methods. That's why we don't hear about it very much. 17:13:56 rwp: Yes, that's what I've been thinking... but then, why it is in the FreeBSD Handbook written as a first option to do backups? You can do incremental backup with rsync. Also with zfs send. 17:14:46 Just for the sake of my curiosity, this command "dump" really looks like some museum backup tool, why it is still in the FreeBSD? :D 17:15:56 Like... I understand that FreeBSD is conservative... but isn't this "too much"? :-) 17:17:54 JurassCZ: i think you're underestimating how many users still deploy UFS 17:19:05 kevans_: I've read that it shall be somewhat good for UFS... however isn't the rsync still better, even for UFS? Actually, one can use also "tar" command to do incremental backups - isn't it still better than using dump? 17:20:19 depends on how you like to manage these things 17:21:33 some people like to use the nodump flag on files to exclude them rather than building exclude lists, for instance 17:21:33 Don't know how do you mean. With both, rsync and tar, I can do incremental backups. Just curious, what can be dump good for, even for that UFS. Trying to figure it out. 17:23:40 kevans_: hmm, ok, it sounds old and nostalgic so far 17:27:59 The point behind my question is that FreeBSD is supposed to have excellent documentation — or at least that is what I was told. However, I’m a bit surprised that the very first recommendation in one of the most important documentation sections — backups — is the dump command. :-) 17:30:00 i mean, depends on how you like to structure your backups, I guess; the handbook doesn't have to exhaustively document options, and it's good to document those that are unique to freebsd 17:30:26 you can go read about using rsync for things like that in a lot of places, no? 17:35:01 reading the section, i'm not sure i have the same takeaway that this is the thing we're recommending 17:37:21 rsync is third party dump is native. that is likely the rationale. 17:52:41 JurassCZ, rsync is NOT suitable for backup to tape. NOT. So no rsync does not replace dump for that situation. 17:53:09 tar is also file by file. dump is filesystem by filesystem and more efficient than tar. 17:53:42 rwp: Well... I thought that using the word "tape" is just historical residue. Who the heck is using tape nowadays? :D 17:54:22 We obviously have a ZFS community of users but we also have a community of UFS users who have been using the unix file system for decades and feel no need to change from that. They just have not experience the joy of zfs yet! :-) 17:54:44 I am sure there are still people using tape backup. 17:55:16 But even if not then dumping a ufs filesystem is still more efficient than tar over the files on it. 17:56:01 speaking of rsync, whats your opinion on the vs openrsync? are you switching 17:56:04 Unix is a workbench of amazing tools. It is up to the craftsperson to decide which tool to use at any given time. 17:56:24 answered my q quickly lol 17:56:49 we did a lot of work at openrsync at $work to make it more viable for production workloads and closer to the reference rsync 17:56:57 That was purely accidental but the sentiment is true regardless. :-) 17:57:04 s/at/on/ 17:57:56 Before the vibe coding of rsync I would have said that the openrsync project is a fool's drain of resources to create a parallel effort only because OpenBSD does not like the GPL. 17:58:24 They are both free software licenses and neither will affect anyone who wants to use the programs. 17:58:55 Of course now we know that rsync is being vibe-coded at a high rate of change right now. So that has scared people into thinking rsync is going to get crazy. 17:59:51 I doubt anything bad is going to happen with rsync due to vibe coding as I assume that Andrew Tridgell is not going to let that happen. But we will see. No need to panic yet. 18:01:10 Having said that, it is often good to have two implementations of something. That allows A-B comparisons and a fallback if there is a problem. Both improve. 18:02:33 JurassCZ: tape is still a valid option due to the storage time 18:03:18 rwp: er, isn't Tridgell the main one using claude there? 18:03:31 so 'not going to let that happen' would appear to be false before you even wrote it 18:04:13 rwp openbsd has its own caled openrsync 18:04:33 https://www.openrsync.org/ 18:05:18 kevans_, Not going to let rsync fail with bugs due to lack of oversight. Definitely using vibe coding. But I assume with oversight. 18:05:48 we published our version of openrsync here: https://github.com/klarasystems/openrsync -- kristaps has started reconciling the difference back into his version 18:06:11 Andrew is a smart guy. I doubt he will let his baby go bad letting the AI commit code changes without his reviewing them and agreeing with them. 18:06:15 to be fare I stay away from GPL 18:06:41 We can have the GPL discussion in -social after I have had lunch but let's avoid it here again. :-) 18:07:02 there is a hand full of GPL code include in base 18:07:10 dont see why it shouldn't be ok to talk about it here 18:07:27 there's almost no GPL included as of 16 18:07:30 rwp: Ok, so I've got the answer I needed. I assumed that using the word "tape" in 2026 FreeBSD documentation is refering also to modern HDD SSD. Now I see that Handbook is serious - heck they really saying "tape" and they really mean "tape". 18:07:36 almost no* 18:07:47 Using the machine learning tools to find bugs is happening at a high rate right now. It's going to happen either by us or by someone. That's why so many bugs are being inconveniently found now. Lots of patching. It's draining on people time to keep up right now. 18:07:50 nobody is using the gpl bwn phy 18:08:11 cpet, I don't want to do it now because I have to pee and I am hungry and am going to step away from the keyboard in a moment! 18:08:13 or the kcov stuff, utside of zfs 18:08:30 rwp: ok? we really dont have to know that you have to pee 18:08:43 and i only said that cause somoenes got upset when I said I have CKD 18:09:17 kevans_: everything in contrib is more than likely still GPL 18:09:23 absolutely not, no 18:09:41 https://wiki.freebsd.org/GPLinBase 18:10:28 diff3 and dialog are both replaced 18:10:51 cpet, I only said it because a) it's true b) I am only human c) I am not a robot d) it's really why I don't want to rathole down the same tired discussion that has been talked to death repeatedly. 18:11:28 rwp: lets talk about politics then 18:11:33 rwp: thats a good one 18:12:47 religion first, then politics, then the color to paint the bike shed. I am sure we will get all of those settled and done by end of day. 18:13:14 ill skip religion 18:13:40 how bout talk about it in #freebsd-social :) 18:14:17 thats just wrong 18:14:26 polarian: please join #freebsd-serial 18:14:57 actually 18:15:00 cpet: lol 18:15:01 theres a better way 18:15:02 funny 18:15:27 polarian: please join #freebsd-funny 18:16:29 if I do a find LICENSE or COPYING then grep for Free Software 18:16:37 should give me an idea of how much stuff is stull GPL 18:16:58 * cpet does a git clone 18:17:37 This is odd. I have two dhparam files, both created sept 22, 2021. One is accepted by nginx/openssl in 15.0, the other is refused for being "too small". Both are 4096-bit, but according to 'openssl dhparam -check' one has an unsafe prime and is missing a 'Q' value .. 18:19:45 there has been many changes in openssl cyphers have been removed 18:20:01 sounds about right to get errors like that after 5 years 18:21:44 Not if I add that they were created *on the same system* on the same date, using the same command (openssl dparam -dsaparam -out ). One is fine, the other is not. 18:25:10 Ltning: uh well time to reinstall 18:26:28 should of done this on the other server 18:32:27 Ltning: so how do you have more than one ? 18:35:06 kevans_: https://wiki.freebsd.org/ContribSoftware 18:36:16 So that’s funny — I never really figured out what dump is good for, and now I see that it really is meant for tape. And when the Handbook says “tape”, it actually means tape. 18:36:16 So dump is definitely not for me, since I don’t use tape. It looks like that whole Backup section in the Handbook is aimed more at server admins. 18:36:34 JurassCZ: dump is mostly used for UFS2 fs's 18:36:59 Common, you can use rsync on UFS, don't you think? 18:37:00 JurassCZ: if you use zfs, use snapshots. zfs-autobackup (in ports) is brilliant. 18:37:26 JurassCZ: think of dump like using Norton Utilieis or a HD cloning software 18:37:38 rysnc is basically just a comparision programs compares two folder to be the same 18:37:46 dump dumps your fs on a bit by bit 18:38:38 cpet: Arch linux guys like rsync for system backups. You can see directly the files, and you can do incremental backups as well. 18:38:44 cpet: this is incredibly outdated, yes 18:39:19 JurassCZ: what exactly is the issue then ? 18:39:25 you're free to accept my pointer to the GPL tracker or not, I guess. I do actually work on this stuff, though 18:40:04 kevans_: i looked at both and did some find magic and yeap there like only 2 items still gpl'ed 18:40:25 cpet: The issue is, that dump really is obivously for tapes :D And sometimes it can be seen that somebody says it's for UFS, which I think is weird claim, because for UFS (on SSD) you would be better using rsync IMO. 18:40:40 JurassCZ, If you are looking for a backup recommendation then I suggest using "pkg install restic" https://restic.readthedocs.io/en/stable/ 18:41:11 rwp: Yes I use restic on my debian server 18:41:13 JurassCZ: there is a command in tar for tapes and tar defaults to the tape device 18:41:52 interesting 18:41:54 ah a perfect example on a use of dump 18:42:09 Restic needs a little bit of wrapper around it and everyone does it a little different. I wrote this to describe how I do it: https://www.proulx.com/~bob/doc/restic-backup/restic-backup.html 18:42:54 If you are already using restic then it would be the natural to use for your FreeBSD backup too. 18:43:07 sbin/dump -0u -L -C16 -B4589840 -P 'growisofs -Z /dev/cd0=/dev/fd/0' /u 18:44:29 depending on how much your are backing up I like to create tar files then upload them 18:44:44 i dont like to have 3rd party stuff when the OS itself has a basic set to do this 18:45:03 * kevans_ puts two and two together and realizes he met rwp last year 18:45:22 I'll be at BSDCAN again this year! 18:45:27 nice! 18:46:16 cpet: Exactly! Could be better to use basic tools. And so... isn't it better to use tar on UFS? Why dump? It looks more complicated. 18:46:36 think you are making it more complicated heh 18:46:45 tar operates file by file. dump operates on the filesystem. 18:47:03 But anyway, machines are so fast these days. If you want to use tar, then use tar! tar is awesome! 18:47:40 cpet: But with tar you can exclude specific folders. You can't do thiss with dump. Also, isn't there higher risk to do dump on lifesystem than tar on lifesystem? 18:47:43 JurassCZ: https://freebsdfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Tapes-Not-Dead.pdf 18:48:01 JurassCZ: normally you wouldnt be doing dump on a daily bsis 18:48:25 cpet: Oook, but then, what would you be doing on daily basis? 18:48:41 (suppose you don't use ZFS) 18:48:44 tar 18:49:14 i only backup /etc /usr/local/etc a pkg dump and /var/* andin my case /stronghold 18:49:25 now some people like to backup everything i personally dont see a point 18:49:28 cpet: Ok, so now it get really confusing. Why would you do dump on e.g. monthly basis and tar on daily basis? You would be fine doing just tar only. Why mix it with dump? 18:49:43 now I have used dump to do a fs dump back when i used UFS as a quick way to restore a system that i messed up 18:49:45 I am curious about that too. 18:50:10 JurassCZ: nver said I use dump at all 18:50:46 Let's all just agree that zfs is the file system that everyone should be using now and move on. :-) :-) 18:51:00 Ok 18:51:27 if JurassCZdoesnt understand i dont see why we cant continue to talk about it 18:51:59 ... 18:52:14 JurassCZ: you do you man 18:52:32 . 18:52:36 One smiley face says someone is joking. Two smiley faces says someone was jokingly trolling. 18:52:54 when it comes to libera i dont know really 18:53:04 im surprised you didint say please goto #freebsd-dump 18:54:02 Are you going to attack me now? 18:54:38 cpet: You have been just saying nonsense. That's all. You said "you wouldn't be using dump on daily basis but you would be using tar on daily basis". That's nonsense. 18:54:54 It's simply stupid. 18:54:59 why? 18:55:05 And now you attack me that I'm trolling 18:55:13 the hell 18:55:25 that was rwp 18:55:28 cpet: Because. I will not open this topic again. 18:57:05 not sure how using tar to tar up your home dir and other stuff daily is "stupid" 18:57:06 rwp: Thanks for sharing the restic blog.. a good read! 18:58:14 ibs, I am glad you enjoyed it! 18:58:28 " JurassCZ: normally you wouldnt be doing dump on a daily bsis" 18:58:28 "cpet: Oook, but then, what would you be doing on daily basis?" 18:58:28 "cpet> tar" 18:58:28 cpet: So it was you not rwp. I suppose you are the one who is trolling. 18:59:00 well its a script if you must know 18:59:11 i tar up my home dir and other dirs 18:59:19 then send it to a backup server 18:59:26 then it checks on the last one and removes it 18:59:50 part of backing up is the fact that each person does thing differently 19:00:06 what you think is stupid to me is not using rsync or some other 3rd party app to me is stupid 19:00:12 just the joys of admining your systems 19:00:41 not sure how stating my opinion accounts to trolling 19:00:55 I suspect you are quite old guy already. Or drunked. Anyway, i will not start flame, it has not a point. 19:01:00 i only said that after rwp basically said lets move on 19:01:42 JurassCZ: dont insult me now 19:04:18 Please everyone run /topic and review it. Have fun, be civilized, respect each other. 19:05:51 cpet: i stand corrected- we still have parts of gnu dialog that get installed if you turn WITH_DIALOG on, need to see what's blocking removal -- hopefully we can get that done in 16.0, because the other two are rarely used 19:06:13 kevans_: dialog is there cause we still have dvp 19:06:18 which is the progess bar thing 19:06:41 or so the wiki says 19:07:32 kevans_: but then again im still tryin to figure out why im being called old and drunk heh 19:08:29 right, we have dpv but it's excluded by default at the moment 19:08:30 kevans_: when was the last time you used ipf ? 19:08:38 approximately never :-) 19:08:49 im not sure why we still have it 19:08:57 ive always said why do we have 3 firewall suits 19:09:12 Im using the apple magic keyboard on my desktop freebsd via usb, works completely fine except that the tilde/backtick key doesnt seem to be mapped right? im on wayland 19:09:25 well, two of them do actually make sense 19:09:39 on us-intl it gives me |\ while on us layout < 19:09:40 ipfw can do some things yet that pf can't, and probably vice-versa 19:10:18 seti_: i use a logitech pebble BT keyboard 19:10:32 kevans_: i was happy to see that netbsd npf now does user blocking 19:11:08 kevans_: didn't opie get removed ? 19:11:25 kevans_: I have access to wiki if you want to play with these pages ? 19:14:06 alright, fixed GPLinBase 19:14:21 dialog is replaced but we can't call it actually done until we rip out the DIALOG option 19:19:11 No utility in BASE uses dialog(1), dpv(1) -> dpv(3) -> dialog(3) anyway no component in BASE uses dpv. 19:19:55 FYI, did some measurement of tar vs dump speed, the dump is almost twice as fast, however you can't exclude folder with logs and caches, so it's more stuff to backup. 19:19:55 https://paste.rs/YFWJZ 19:20:15 JurassCZ: weve moved on 19:20:33 ok 19:20:35 kevans_: i changed it to make more sense 19:20:38 :P 19:20:42 JurassCZ: you can exclude files by setting the nodump flag, can't you? 19:20:55 ivy: yeap 19:21:11 ok, that's true 19:21:42 bu thats only valid if you install freebsd on the limit of the FS 19:21:56 also, i believe dump can use UFS snapshots for consistent dumps, whereas for tar you'd have to set that up by hand 19:22:01 meaning / /var /tmp /usr /usr/local etc and setting nodump to say /var/log 19:22:09 cpet: dpv(1) is a little bit of a loss, but it's been off-by-default since 2023... 15.0 should have shipped without it, but I don't think I've seen any complaints 19:22:36 kevans_: i remeber playing with it and going whats the point should be a port 19:23:04 I'm guessing nobody else saw any complaints either, otherwise re@ would have probably dropped a mandate and flipped the option back on since it's low-impact 19:23:46 well, probably not re@ if the complaints didn't ship during the release cycle 19:25:16 ivy: man dump dont see any options for snapshots 19:25:23 cpet: -L 19:27:26 ivy: ah i see it now 19:30:28 ivy: i am getting to a point that I try to login to my servers and wondering why my password doesn't work then 15 mins later realizing i was connecting to server2 instead of server1 19:33:16 Add new libraries/utilities for data throughput visualization. 19:33:43 think FreeBSD-dpv should be changed to something like FreeBSD-vis as that is what dpv was origianlly for 19:35:22 kevans_: since when did dpv stop getting installed ? 19:35:59 it's too late to rename any packages unless the existing name is obviously wrong, the inconvenience to users is too high 19:38:51 dont changes happen in current first then MFC'ed to the others ? 19:39:07 could have a transitional package name? 19:40:26 cpet: that doesn't make a difference; the problem is we have to document the change in the release notes, then the user has to read the release notes, remove the old package, and install the new package, on every system where that package is in use. that's fine if there's a good reason for it, but if FreeBSD-dpv contains dpv(1), that doesn't seem like a good enough reason 19:42:22 so if 15.1 is already branched how would thos affect STABLE ? 19:42:52 a change like this would never be MFC'd to stable, it would be for 16.0-RELEASE 19:43:35 the releng policy for packaging changes is that they can be MFC'd if the new packages are in FreeBSD-set-minimal, since all supported installation methods will install the new package with no user action required 19:43:38 should really be a port 19:46:22 MelanieUrsidino: I do not know I was only mention it cause I was reading GPLinBase wiki page 19:50:40 SOmetiems I wish blockbuster was still a thing 19:50:58 netflix almost made it a thing with the mail order cd service 19:50:59 cpet: it would have been here: https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/?id=38981026e70390ccfb99930ec6d71299dd2af780 19:51:57 kevans_: i was talking about dpv 19:53:17 yes, I am also talking about dpv 19:53:42 it's gated behind the DIALOG option: https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/tree/usr.bin/Makefile?id=38981026e70390ccfb99930ec6d71299dd2af780#n196 19:54:09 kevans_: theres a big reason why I get that VA disability check every month heh 19:54:54 ? 19:55:50 MelanieUrsidino: read up about the wiki pages 20:47:15 i realize i need to be a magician to run wine 32bit on freebsd 15 :D 20:50:19 (ghostbsd ppl do not answer irc or forums) 20:51:50 Are you saying they ghosted you? 20:51:52 solstis: did you read the wiki/docs 20:52:07 solstis: ghostbsd is kind of dead 20:53:50 actually let me double check that before im called a troll, or cursed at 20:55:25 can i change my repositories to freebsd ? after all the 'trying to run a program with wine' and ' wine: could not load ntdll.so: Shared object "libprocstat.so.1" not found, required by "ntdll.so" 20:55:45 what rogram are you running in wine 20:56:09 i have no progress with the wine situation and even now when i try "sudo pkg update' i get pkg: https://pkg.ghostbsd.org/stable/FreeBSD:15:amd64/base/packagesite.tzst: Forbidden 20:56:12 Unable to update repository GhostBSD-base 20:56:15 Error updating repositories! 20:56:50 well for one you do realize this is not #ghostbsd 20:56:54 i'm trying to install metatrader5 20:57:31 yes, sure :-( 20:57:57 accoring to wine it has horrible support for it 20:58:00 so I wouldn't bother 20:58:03 does it make sense to change my repositories (if that's the correct way to phrase it) to freebsd or better attempt a clean freebsd installation 20:58:08 and see if you can get it to work using Linux emu 20:58:39 ghostbsd is just a fancier way of installing and with a lot of preinstalled stuff 20:58:51 but since you are missing libs looks like a broken OS 20:59:41 usr/lib/libprocstat.so.1 21:00:45 In FreeBSD 15, is there a way to get ports or pkg to install the 32-bit version of libraries like libX11 on an amd64 system? 21:00:47 solstis: I would just reinstall 21:01:11 anth: nope i dont think ports supports that 21:01:23 you can run programs but you cant have 32 and 64bit packages 21:01:39 you can however run a 32 bit version of freebsd in bhyve and then use the VNC to login to it 21:01:44 not really a solution but it works 21:01:58 exept it's not supported in 15 any more, is it? 21:02:22 anth: 32-bit userland is still supported, only the kernel was removed 21:02:40 the problem is, iirc, we no longer build i386 ports for 15, so you have to build whatever is required yourself 21:02:54 which you can do in a jail 21:03:07 you will have to fix build errors as well 21:03:18 there should not be any build errors as this configuration is fully supported 21:03:25 (obviously, bugs may exist, but that applies to any platform) 21:04:32 hmm, although i'm not sure what ports people did about this, tbh 21:13:36 PCBSD did a good job in regards to that a pita it died besides being buggy as hell the idea was good 21:15:57 Granted, coming in late and haven't read the full history. But, lib32 is still very much available in 15, for sure. 21:16:20 you are not granted 21:16:38 that means compiling 21:16:43 something ek likes to do 21:17:06 ek: that doesn't necessarily meant we support building a TARGET=i386 userland for ports though... i think we do support this but i wouldn't put money on it 21:17:18 (imo, if this doesn't work, it's a bug, removing that would be too much disruption to users) 21:17:50 ivy: No, it doesn't. But, the option to build something that *CAN* build i386 is definitely available. 21:17:51 * cpet puts 50 bucks down 21:18:12 would be packages would have to be built or install 14.4 21:18:37 I'm trying to think of the last thing I built for i386. 21:18:49 .. using a jail or Poudriere or something. 21:18:56 https://pkg.freebsd.org/ 21:19:06 I was hoping to do a quick test. It's been so long, though. 21:19:07 according to that 14 still has 32bit packages 21:19:14 ek: for 99% of users it's probably wine, because you need a 32-bit userland to run 32-bit windows applications, and *a lot* of Windows applications are still 32-bit 21:19:32 Very true! 21:19:34 this use-case is important enough that we can't just drop 32-bit ports 21:19:38 battle.net :( 21:20:05 (also, we still support armv7 which is 32-bit, so i really mean i386 ports here, not 32-bit ports) 21:20:11 but ever since steam crashed windows I have been using freebsd as my main machine 21:20:14 I honestly haven't run wine in... 15 years? Last time I ran it was to play "Plants VS Zombies", I think. Haha 21:20:31 jesus ek 21:20:35 out of all games 21:20:55 i ran wine when I was using some forensic software which was windows 32 21:20:57 worked fine 21:20:59 I don't play PC games, dude! It was just to pass the time at work while I was waiting for huge cron jobs to finish. 21:21:09 we really should have ports just build/install lib32 packages for every port, like Linux does it. but given how fucked ports is in general i have less than zero interest in trying to make that happen 21:21:35 thats harsh 21:21:36 (obviously this could be a make.conf option for people who don't want that) 21:21:50 a freebsd commiter has called "freebsd ports fucked" 21:22:15 ?¿ 21:22:17 ivy: Amen! Getting ports sorted out right should be a higher priority. But, it's going to take a lot of work. :( 21:22:24 How is ports fucked? 21:22:31 MelanieUrsidino: ask ivy 21:22:39 cpet: it would be a mistake to attribute any special significance to my opinions. they are worth the same as anyone else's opinions 21:23:01 ivy: i was called a troll earlier for talking about dump 21:23:07 so welcome to the game 21:23:30 but as an example, look at subpackages. "what are subpackages?" you ask - yes, exactly. we had this 99% done years ago and it was never finished because of some poudriere issue that was never fixed, so no one can have subpackages 21:23:33 cpet: But... but... You *ARE* a troll, technically speaking. It just so happens that this time you were not trolling. :D 21:23:40 and, as it happens, lib32 packages would be a perfect application for subpackages 21:24:14 ek: if you say so man 21:24:26 Haha. You know I'm just poking fun. 21:24:40 ek: you better 21:25:04 ivy: Yeah. Sub-packages were looking great a while back. Was hoping for that to come to fruition. But, alas,, no dice. 21:25:08 A bummer. 21:25:18 i dont think there are that many 32 bit unix word apps 21:25:23 besides a few like zsnes 21:25:44 but the creator ported it to amd64 21:25:48 hwever no source 21:26:09 i wanted to play with it so i submit a port then have someones it was already submitted like my fceu port from like 2003 21:26:29 Bah 21:28:03 flah 21:28:51 brah! 21:29:11 harb 21:29:45 There we go. 21:30:26 I've gotta try to port this zmNinjaNG/Zoneminder stuff to FBSD. This Ubuntu "requirement" is killing me. Completely unstable. 21:30:34 Like, frustratingly unstable. 21:30:43 zmNinjaNG? did you accidentally paste your password? 21:30:59 Nope. That's the project. 21:31:02 zm ninja new gen 21:31:06 get with the program 21:31:28 I am hoping ek doesnt have passwords like that 21:31:32 the ZM notification server (Ng) and zmNinja (Ng). 21:31:43 Haha. I do not. 21:32:05 and if ivy thinks thats a pssword i think i can question her secueity a bit 21:32:07 :P 22:22:58 zoneminder? 22:23:41 the cctv / nvr ? 22:47:09 rtprio: Yes.