01:24:49 <ivy> 15.0 is now 15.0-PRERELEASE
01:33:57 <Macer> yay!
04:34:02 <mason> ivy: Is pkgbase going to be the default for 15?
04:35:04 <mason> Hm, here's a clue: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/freebsd-foundation-flounders-on-15-with-rust-pkgbase-and-kde.98695/
04:36:32 <mason> The thread is... interesting... in that the traditional way to upgrade is to build or to unroll new tarballs, with freebsd-update being a somewhat nonstandard middle ground.
04:37:56 <mason> I'm sorry to have linked that thread. Should have read it first.
04:38:57 <mason> Hm, still a few months to go. I should experiment with pkgbase in advance: https://www.freebsd.org/releases/15.0R/schedule/
07:43:06 <Remilia> mason: interesting is an interesting choice of word haha, it's just plain weird
08:03:18 <Remilia> (a page later) this is why  I stopped using forums about a decade ago I guess
08:52:49 <modev> hi, I want to say that there is new channel #odin-lang for interested in Odin programing.
08:52:53 <modev> sorry for spam
09:08:16 <Afterglow> Programming with a hammer :-)
10:09:39 <Montoya> Hi
11:37:42 <williamstoner> can someone sell me on freebsd
11:45:39 <surrounder> williamstoner: yes, you can
11:46:09 <williamstoner> like why would i use it instead of debian surrounder
11:46:52 <surrounder> to have a real OS instead of a hump of 3rd party packages lumped together
11:49:22 <kserg> Tenkawa, forum was fixed
11:54:18 <williamstoner> wouldn't third party software that have been tried and tested be just as stable tho?
12:04:21 <Demosthenex> no.
12:04:47 <Demosthenex> linux is a mishmash of software from disparate sources, duck taped and tied together by the distro
12:05:09 <Demosthenex> freebsd is shipped as one OS. the core OS is a single unit created and distributed by the same team
12:05:10 <SponiX> williamstoner: FreeBSD has a handful of Pros and a few Cons
12:05:26 <Demosthenex> third party stuff is then installed on top of that solid rock of a base system
12:05:51 <Demosthenex> freebsd should give you confidence that you can't break the base system thru farting around with third party software
12:06:15 <SponiX> mason: I can tell you one thing don't do "pkg remove -a" with pkgbase going, it will take out your core pkgs too right now, leaving you with an unusable system that needs a fresh install ;)
12:06:39 <Demosthenex> i think one of the mailing list posts just nailed it
12:06:42 <SponiX> Demosthenex: well, that is what I and a few other folks have done recently ;)
12:06:50 <Demosthenex> this seems to be about making a smaller base image so containers and embedded can pick and choose
12:07:02 <Demosthenex> but then they want third party pkgs to PULL deps from the base OS that aren't installed
12:07:33 <SponiX> well, I'm hoping before 15 is released with pkgbase they iron that out
12:07:35 <Demosthenex> so they want to force the core to be packaged, so third party can trigger installation of core pkgs
12:07:59 <Demosthenex> i'm all for minimal OS footprint, but... i don't like the idea that third party packages can have ANY impact on the base
12:08:33 <SponiX> Yeah, that is why it caught me off guard when I broke my box that way
12:08:44 <SponiX> didn't expect that to be a problem, found out the hard way
12:16:32 <SponiX> anyone tried Dragonfly BSD?
12:17:33 <llua> yeah
12:18:15 <SponiX> Does it have ZFS?
12:23:10 <surrounder> no, hammerfs
12:27:11 <SponiX> that's right.. forgot about that
12:27:24 <SponiX> I've honestly never even booted it up in a vm
12:31:13 <williamstoner> what's the difference in all those BSD distros if they all have the same package manager?
12:31:28 <surrounder> the software
12:31:56 <Demosthenex> williamstoner: the OS and the third party packages are separated
12:32:17 <Demosthenex> nvm, i read that again :P
12:32:25 <williamstoner> can you give me an example
12:32:52 <Demosthenex> you meant they all use pkg, as opposed to deb or rpm?
12:33:11 <williamstoner> yeah
12:34:11 <surrounder> williamstoner: why is suse different from redhat? they both use rpm!
12:35:30 <williamstoner> surrounder: that's fair but 99% of linux distros are just fork of others with different configs. But, for example, debian and arch are way different
12:35:44 <surrounder> so are opensuse and fedora
12:35:49 <surrounder> so are openbsd and freebsd
12:36:22 <AmyMalik> but they build their packgaes differently and have different defaults
12:36:51 <surrounder> I mainly don't understand the question of 'selling' an OS to anybody
12:37:01 <surrounder> just give it a shot and form your own opinion
12:37:57 <williamstoner> yeah surrounder you are right but i tried once and i got some weird error during install and then just forgot
12:38:13 <surrounder> so try again?
12:38:21 <surrounder> very easy with virtualization around everywhere
12:38:43 <williamstoner> i will definitely
12:38:51 <Demosthenex> "give it a shot?"
12:38:54 <Demosthenex> that's very loose criteria
12:39:04 <Demosthenex> OS's should be chosen by features and requirements
12:39:42 <Demosthenex> i require: third party software can't screw up my OS. ZFS with boot environments. no systemd. reliable upgrades.
12:40:05 <Demosthenex> access to most common OSS packages is a plus
12:40:28 <AmyMalik> also 'pkg' is different utilities on freebsd vs. open and net
12:40:49 <AmyMalik> «third party software can't screw up the OS» requires third party software to be run in containers.
12:42:22 <Demosthenex> no. / vs /usr/local is enough
12:43:13 <williamstoner> i like the philosphy of freebsd i just dont know if taking the time to figure out the issue during the install is worth it instead of simply sticking with debian
12:45:00 <Demosthenex> "figure the issue during the install"?
12:48:55 <williamstoner> Demosthenex: i tried installing freebsd on my laptop and got some weird issue with the sdhci driver that wouldnt let me go further
12:50:23 <williamstoner> i made a post on reddit about that because i couldn't understand what it meant and i was told to blacklist the driver with a command on the terminal
12:50:41 <williamstoner> but the command returned unknown command lol so my freebsd journey ended there
13:07:34 <Demosthenex> ah. yeah, freebsd hardware support is where linux was a decade ago
13:07:47 <Demosthenex> i'm rather used to debugging those driver issues. laptops tend to be... finiky
13:08:19 <Demosthenex> you might try on a desktop or vm first
19:09:11 <Remilia> found a way to completely wreck my server's MediaWiki performance: just run `find` and arc_prune shoots to 100% CPU, making every php-fpm process go crazy on I/O waits
19:10:01 <Remilia> oooooh this explains weird spikes at 03:00 when periodic scripts run
19:10:14 <Remilia> I think they include find
19:12:06 <Remilia> CPU:  2.6% user,  0.0% nice, 41.4% system,  0.1% interrupt, 55.9% idle
19:12:12 <skered> You're thinking is correct.
19:12:14 <Remilia> and that's not the lowest hahaha, it was 83%
19:12:23 <Remilia> in system
19:13:01 <skered> locate rebuild, finding suids
19:13:56 <Remilia> why can't ARC just take more memory, I do not get it
19:14:05 <Remilia> Mem: 4112M Active, 18G Inact, 3486M Laundry, 4861M Wired, 136K Buf, 681M Free
19:15:17 <Remilia> and this is on 14.3-RELEASE-p1
19:32:23 <rtprio> why does it need more
23:23:24 <decuser> hiall, is there a way to get interactive loading of rc.conf/loader.conf during boot?
23:24:19 <decuser> i seem to remember being able to do this, but can't find it anywhere.