00:53:31 Hello bsd people , linux user here (〃^∇^)ﾉ 00:53:52 is openbsd worth it ? 00:54:09 I mean freebsd 01:04:30 Linux ppl aren't worth it :O 01:06:15 i'm always confused when people do things like that, where they come in and go "sell your OS to me" in a support channel :D 01:16:51 2048 15628050432 1 apple-zfs (7.3T) 01:17:11 would changing that to freebsd-zfs break it? i doubt the filesystem type has any impact on zfs does it? 01:17:25 i think proxmox made it like that 01:34:57 Macer: I bet its free to change 01:41:31 Macer: you been doing FreeBSD for a while? 01:47:59 these drives got yanked from a proxmmox server that made the pool i just didn't bother changing the partition tables when i created a new pool on them 01:49:13 SponiX: on and off but this is the first time i'm doing anything real with it 01:52:07 i'm still a little curious why zfsd isn't enabled by default 01:59:19 platters feature@encryption enabled local 01:59:29 really fighting the urge to play with that lol 01:59:42 i should make an encrypted dataset just to see the thing 03:30:16 is nanobsd still a thing? 03:36:47 lemoi: i'm not sure how well maintained it is but it's still in the tree and had some recent commits 03:37:28 I should look into BSDRP. I believe their builds use the nanobsd magic 03:37:35 thanks ivy 07:48:39 polarian: i'm not on discord rn but i'll pass it on to ziaee 11:45:32 pwd 12:00:44 rocking my pinebook pro today lol. i should see if i can get freebsd to work on it 12:01:01 i think i tried at one point but something like wifi didn't work... i can't quite remember. 12:02:54 try Open? It seems counterintutive but I've always had a better time running Open on laptops and Free on servers 12:09:13 Maybe I’ll look at it. I can just use a SD for testing. 12:09:28 I have towboot on the spi so that makes it easier. 12:09:49 I don’t know where the serial cable is for it though. I’m going to have to go digging around for it. 12:31:48 I'm getting a log error inside a jail from cron, similar to the one solved https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions/2024-June/005405.html. I tried setting the priority as inherit but doesn't seem to solve it. The error is: Login 'root': Login class 'daemon': Setting priority failed: Permission denied. Also happens for the user operator. 13:51:50 so the final python built-in mixer, ossaudiodev, is being kicked out in 3.13 :\ and they want you to take over maintaining the library https://peps.python.org/pep-0594/#ossaudiodev 16:11:28 dmesg 16:11:32 o_O 16:11:40 Sorry - window focus. 16:12:09 CrtxReavr: It happens 17:00:50 lol 17:00:58 could have been worse. could have been a password or key 17:01:19 it's all fun and games until copy/paste goes wrong :) 17:02:50 i think when i get a chance i'm going to pull the 10gbit nic out of the freebsd server and replace it with a spare P400 i have. allan jude said it's possible to use it for nvenc/dec 20:28:19 ivy: thank you :D 20:28:52 I am still not going to use Discord even if it becomes mandatory to contribute to freebsd >:) 20:41:30 why would discord become mandatory to contribute to freebsd? 20:48:29 kevans: just saying... IF it did 20:48:38 Is discord even in ports? 20:48:41 currently it seems a lot of the documentation team uses Discord 20:48:45 CrtxReavr: iirc nope 20:48:50 they use the browser client 20:49:05 Discord doesnt run native on FreeBSD, it has to be done through the linux compat 20:49:08 I wasn't aware it had a browser client. 20:49:29 https://www.freshports.org/net-im/linux-discord/ ah it is in the ports 20:49:41 the linux prefix is to signify it needs linux compat to run though 20:49:54 CrtxReavr: https://discord.com/login 20:50:40 From what I know on the topic, a lot of the oyunger freebsd devs are more progressive in the platforms they use, while a lot of the older ones are more rigid on sticking to email/IRC 20:50:40 I'm not going to entertain it becoming mandatory for FreeBSD contributers, but Discord has become a suprisingly great tool, despite its humble origins and easy-to-use voice chat for gaming. 20:51:01 I still would love to do a talk on the evils of Discord 20:51:24 I hate that so many FOSS projects endorse Discord, and I am not saying this because its proprietary, I am saying the platform itself is genuinely evil once you peel back its facade. 20:51:30 I think they're about *THIS* close to pivoting into the spaces that WebEx, Zoom, Slack, Et al. occupy in the corporate world. 20:52:15 the difference is Discord literally is life... as someone who spent their teenage years when Discord was new (and is still a teen), the only way to keep in contact with friends was Discord. 20:52:22 No DIscord... no friends... you are socially isolated 20:52:28 SMS? whatsapp? whats that? 20:53:17 People talk about how annoying it is to have say 10-15 different apps on their phone to keep in contact with friends and family, at least you dont rely on a single one, younger people, people my age, all rely ENTIRELY on Discord 20:53:30 You usually can spot a uni open source project because it will endorse Discord 20:54:54 so like I said it is evil, not because its centralised or proprietary, but because it has legitimately indoctrinated the younger generation, they dont use anything other than Discord... they can't even, you give them an open source alternative and they refuse to acknowledge it as its not as feature rich as Discord. 20:54:59 sorry for the rant... :D 20:55:28 There is a FreeBSD Discord "server" wtih 5470 users. 20:55:32 Just say'n. 20:55:33 point is open source is adopting Discord a lot, since Freenodes downfall, it seems a lot of projects adopted Discord and Matrix... split about 50/50 as a rough estimate... 20:55:41 CrtxReavr: yup, its documented on the wiki 20:55:53 https://wiki.freebsd.org/FrontPage/Section/Community 20:56:10 https://wiki.freebsd.org/Discord/DiscordServer 20:56:30 oh and the guide to getting Discord on FreeBSD: https://wiki.freebsd.org/Discord/DiscordClient 20:58:29 as you age, your peers will fragment across the newer platforms and you will become one of those people with multiple apps to talk to distinct groups of people. 20:58:56 polarian: platforms come and go. that being said i don't use discord 20:59:15 dstolfa: indeed, but IRC never dies!!! 20:59:45 36 years and counting, and we are all still here! 21:00:08 (IRC is older than me... just under double my age :/) 21:13:01 I think I'm 20 years older than IRC. 21:14:27 Like it or not, a lot of my hobbies and interests are active on Discord. Gotta embrace it. 21:15:31 JustBleedFan: oh sure, but there's a difference between an individual embracing a proprietary platform for chat vs a FOSS project making it an official go-to thing (freebsd hasn't done this, but other projects have) 21:16:01 The FreeBSD server is quite active. I have no idea if it's official. 21:16:20 it is official, but it's not the "go-to" place that everyone is expected to be in 21:16:37 Where is the go to place then if not there and not here on irc? 21:16:56 efnet probably 21:17:59 Every one of my tech related channels are on libera nowadays. Are you just guessing about efnet? 21:18:14 no, there's #bsddev, #bsdports, #bsdmips and a couple of others 21:18:25 https://wiki.freebsd.org/IRC/Channels 21:19:36 That's a lot of specialized channels. I had no idea. 21:30:15 JustBleedFan: Wait until you see the array of mailing lists. :) 21:36:39 hm. i thought the 4K blocks thing for installing on usb drives solved my issues but i guess not. 21:36:56 fbsd server stalled out because rclone started writing its cache to it. 21:37:13 i think i'll pull those out and put a dom in and just run lean 21:42:16 dstolfa: the thing is I fear FreeBSD will 21:42:26 hence why every time Discord comes up I jump in :P 21:42:53 if you go through the freebsd devs quite a few of them have Discord links on their profiles 21:43:16 and according to I believe it was i vy there is quite a few well known freebsd devs who sit on Discord 21:43:41 polarian: far more sit on irc :P 21:43:48 and i don't think there's much will to move anywhere else 21:43:56 so right now, and maybe for the next few years, Discord is just a unofficial side project of freebsd, but I do think in the next 5 or so years it will shift from IRC to Matrix/Discord 21:45:23 I dont see IRC lasting much longer, we have seen hexchat go EOL, the younger devs/contributors dont use IRC, and exclusively use Discord, and as a lot of open source projects have pointed out, the adoption of platforms like Discord increase new contributions 21:45:58 and for a project like freebsd which needs those younger people coming in to help as older devs retire or well... yeah... eventually it will get to the point where Discord takes over IRC 21:46:49 take it from someone whos 19 so still technically a teenager, it is rare to find someone under 21 on IRC, 21-25 there is a few I know of, the average age is 30+ from my experience 21:47:37 the younger generation doesnt even know what IRC is... or anything other than Discord and big tech 21:47:43 re discord, i think it really depends what happens in the next few years with discord. there is a non-zero chance they piss everyone off and ruin the platform enough that everyone leaves to the next thing. I've already seen people starting to plan moving off 21:48:22 foxiepaws: their new AI which scans everyones messages and keeps false banning people for saying the number 12 for "underage" (not even saying "I am 12", just the number 12 can trigger it) 21:48:40 added to the constant performance issues, the insane bandwidth the client takes up... the battery life drain on your phone... 21:48:49 they proactively block vpns and tor 21:48:56 well not block, demand you to verify with your phone number 21:49:08 rate limit you constantly 21:49:25 and they go down rather regularly too... 21:49:51 That all sounds incredibly yucky. 21:49:57 thats my point. thats why we may not see it become the sole official stuff and replace irc for everything. I've already seen people and projects discuss leaving .-. 21:50:14 Yeah, to Matrix which isn't much better... 21:50:23 same performance issues, same bandwidth issues, same battery life issues 21:50:41 but it is open source and decentralised sure, but element is the only decent client and it relies on insane amounts of EU investment... 21:50:59 Yeah, i'm not looking forward to being made to find a matrix server to use, since i will never ever run my own homeserver again :) 21:51:22 i made that mistake twice, nope not again 21:51:40 I am a strong supporter of XMPP, which means I am rigidly against matrix, and its a constant joke about how badly designed matrix is, and not only that, quite a few XMPP devs dont see Matrix lasting to 2026/2027, let alone becoming the standard chat protocol 21:51:56 Signal seems to be getting very popular recently... 21:52:13 I know people dropping off XMPP and IRC and using signal exclusively 21:52:50 foxiepaws: I self host at home, have been since 13/14 because well... I had no life or friends as a teenager, so my server was my friend :P 21:53:28 polarian: That's how must of us fell into all this. Welcome to the club. :) 21:53:32 yep 21:53:42 I still do to this day, I know the struggles and the agony of it, and the burden of it... can't leave the house without having a panic attack that it will go down and I lose contact with my friends... but at the same time there is nothing nicer than the feeling of knowing all your data, and traffic, goes through your own hardware... complete control. 21:53:46 signal requires android or iOS device for registration 21:54:10 indeed, but a lot of people dont seem to care much anymore 21:54:34 i just don't want to deal with the problems of matrix homeserver stuff again. 21:54:43 i still host plenty of services 21:55:03 for myself, and have done for longer than most of the stuff "winning" at the moment has even existed 21:55:17 I am too young to be part of the "IRC days", but back in the 2000s everyone used the same open protocols (email protocols and IRC), now it seems that in order to get open source adopted proprietary protocols and platforms are being used to replace open source ones, and the community is so fragmented 21:55:40 for example I run CalyxOS on my phone, I wanted to talk to them about patching their installer to work on FreeBSD, until I say they are Matrix-only and I dont use matrix... 21:56:07 the fragmentation makes it hard to collaborate without having like 10 different clients open on your laptop/phone 21:56:42 bitlbee exists 21:56:44 lol 21:56:51 bridges exist 21:57:22 I like that OpenBSD has misc@ (which can be hell admittedly but still), all the bullshit goes to one ML, everyone uses email, all bug reports and patches sent via email, no bugzilla, or github or other bs one standard 21:57:38 I dont like bridges... 21:57:48 I think it is just duct taping over the issue 21:58:00 a temporary fix to an issue which keeps getting worse in time 21:59:46 foxiepaws: I have never hosted a matrix server, I know people who did and they nicknamed it "the DDOS protocol" 22:00:07 that would be accurate yes 22:00:08 the moment you peer with matrix.org the insane amounts of metadata eats bandwidth and storage space 22:00:16 i didn't even allow that 22:03:04 I dont get what is the big deal with IRC, imo... XMPP great for one on one communications, OMEMO is E2EE so you are safer discussing personal or secret information, great for friends and family, MUCs kinda suck so IRC is much better for channels, small lightweight and just works, and if someone wanted you could build a Discord-like experience with a client which joins IRC with mumble, you could 22:03:06 even add E2EE and use ctcp to do key exchange... a non-supported client will just ignore the invalid ctcp 22:03:33 email is amazing for indepth discussions and submitting patches, you have no expectation to respond quickly, you can wait a few days and draft a good reply before sending it. 22:04:28 so in my ideal world, contributions would all be patches sent to ML (like on OpenBSD), IRC for discussing things more faster pace (more complex issues go to ML), and then XMPP for friends/family/sensitive discussions with debs 22:04:31 devs* 22:05:02 The primary problem with IRC for people is basically, "presence", people don't want to have to set up bouncers 22:05:04 no proprietary protocols, no lockin, and the ability to write whatever software you want to incorporate it into your workflow... 22:05:13 especially when you're working with mobile, which is so common these days 22:05:21 foxiepaws: there is many, MANY public znc instances... 22:05:30 just because there is doesn't mean people want to figure that out 22:05:54 true, maybe the issue is lack of a client which just works 22:06:05 one which has a default hosted bouncer, or you can self host your own 22:06:16 one which has all the UX which modern chat platforms have now 22:06:24 maybe if such thing existed, IRC might actually be used a lot more 22:06:53 I've asked people why they hate IRC over the years many times, trying to figure out what'd be neccesary to get people to come back or come at all and it over and over again ends up being mobile problems, lack of rich media, and the 512b limit on messages INCLUDING protocol data 22:07:28 IRC could be reasonable and see a resurgance, but not without starting to actually push back on keeping every irc client ever still working, even those not updated since the 90s 22:07:34 IRCv3 has some things to make that easier 22:07:47 but is the limited size of messages really an issue? 22:07:48 it does, you're very right, but it doesn't do enough 22:08:32 yes. it is not actually that uncommon for people to hit it, and yes clients can split messages but if you've spent much time on discord you'll see a lot of multiline messages, with syntax highlighting, and the like. 22:08:44 also as for media, a cdn is entirely possible to use, XMPP does something similiar with http-upload, its uploaded to a http endpoint and then the link is sent in chat (some clients autodownload it, but never enable that as its insecure) 22:08:57 yes email might be the "better" option for that, but protocols like discord and matrix do offer that without the need of email 22:08:58 you could also self host your own one too for freedom, security and privacy 22:09:00 and so people use it 22:09:11 Discord is just a complete solution with its own proprietary protocol 22:09:37 mobile issues are the same for XMPP too 22:09:40 idk about Matrix 22:09:57 IRCCloud free tier solves the problem of missing anything while I am away from keyboard for me since I pretty much leave my laptop on 24/7/365. Therefore it never disconnects me. 22:10:13 Android its fine, although revolution IRC is pretty much unmaintained and is buggy, and weechat is a pain to run on android, and quassel-android is limited to quassel 22:10:13 it very much is not uncommon for people to hit that 512b limit either, due to the fact that it also includes the command [PRIVMSG/NOTICE] the target, etc, separated by spaces and the content separated by : 22:10:25 iOS though is hell 22:10:25 It works well in a browser tab, or a desktop app, or they have a decent mobile client as well. 22:11:03 no decent IRC client, because IRC is designed around a persistent TCP connection iOS kills this the moment you close the app, and even with a bouncer this can be annoying... 22:11:14 Those of us that have been using IRC for decades may have ways we type to get around that which may actually be rather annoying to others. 22:11:18 lol 22:11:20 same thing on XMPP, notifications must go through apples servers 22:12:10 foxiepaws: I get constant complaints on XMPP for "IRC typing", sending lots and lots of small messages instead of sending one big one 22:12:21 yep, excaly 22:12:41 on IRC its the norm, its more of a joke when people sigh at a wall of text, as its a normal thing most of the time 22:13:36 I wouldn't mind if a more modern platform was adopted by freebsd, as long as IRC is left for the people who love IRC, and it is an open protocol and open source... 22:14:00 the shear suggestion that Discord, a proprietary protocol and platform (and centralised) could potentially become the standard 5-10 years down the line is horrifying 22:14:23 It is but it's also just how the entire internet is going as a whole 22:14:40 *BSD has always prided themself on not yielding their values and becoming another Linux (even if FreeBSD has adopted many Linuxisms) 22:15:00 Adopting BSD would be yielding said values 22:15:06 That's the way everything the last couple of decades, open standards replaced with proprietary platforms. Until the Fediverse tried reversing that. 22:15:31 meh I dont care about fediverse, I have always avoided social media... maybe its why I have no friends xD 22:15:38 Its a huge opsec issue 22:15:47 like thats not a value statement of my own value, just an observation 22:15:55 a public profile with all your info on it? pictures of you and your family? you publically airing your views? 22:16:01 its like you are asking to be hacked or targetted 22:16:02 but the internet has been becoming less and less free 22:16:19 only because that is what the consumers wants 22:16:20 want* 22:16:43 yeah, have you tried cchanging people's minds? I have and it has... not worked out 22:16:51 no company has forced you to use their software, your peers are... people dont get Discord because Discord points a gun at their head and demands it, but because their friend has... 22:17:07 foxiepaws: yeah its called cutting off anyone who doesn't give enough of a fuck about my views 22:17:07 Social media is what you make of it. One can use just the parts they want. You can just read it as well, don't need an account. 22:17:12 I lost the majority of my friends when telegram started taking over. 22:17:17 i decided i didn't want to be lonely 22:17:24 anyone who demands I use Discord I tell them its me or Discord, and if they pick Discord over me then good riddance quite frankly 22:17:50 so i just deal with it and use... everything people i care about uses 22:17:54 It's bizarre to me that you would even have that conversation with anyone. 22:18:30 I do feel bad sometimes, as the few people I do talk to, one of them is a cs student who hasnt even finished school yet, he doesnt even fully understand the open source principles but I have pretty much demanded he use XMPP to speak to me... and he has an iphone so its hell for him and yet he still tries his best 22:19:02 for me, it wasn't much of a conversation, it was a "hey we are moving this channel to " and you get a choice to move with them or stop talking at all 22:19:06 thats just how it goes 22:19:19 Okay, now I understand, lol. Egads, the way you describe how you speak to your friends, it's not surprising. 22:19:20 fuck them then (what I would do) 22:20:09 eh, i remove much of how i discuss with folks from this convo. it wasn't negative or anything for me 22:20:10 friendship works both ways, the way I see it is you wouldn't force a Muslim friend to eat pork... why should you force a privacy/security/freedom advocate to use proprietary platforms 22:20:21 if you have respect for your friends religious views, why not their personal beliefs too? 22:21:01 mostly because i do not wish it give too much information on my life and communities 22:21:31 "hey we want to move to X, what do people think?" 22:21:38 i vote no, everyone else votes yes 22:21:43 well not everyone else butt 22:21:45 but * 22:21:50 majority wanted to move 22:21:53 so we all moved 22:22:07 telegram never kicked off here in the UK, I heard it is used by everyone in Poland and Romania 22:22:15 I find value in Discord for three of my hobbies, I'm not hardcore against proprietary software. 22:22:38 and this all happened... when did discord come out? 22:22:54 9 years ago? 22:23:30 it does have its advantages, and i use it for that reason 22:23:53 idk, I got banned once randomly... 22:24:02 i'm also not hardcore against proprietary software 22:24:04 2-3 months later I got an email saying "Hey your account was hacked" 22:24:11 so we banned it 22:24:47 yeah someone stole my password + 2fa token, a 24 char password, and a 2fa token both encrypted with a key which never left my laptop, and they ONLY stole my Discord account? 22:24:50 nah bullshit 22:24:58 I swear Discord does it for shits and giggles 22:25:25 when I was ~14/15 I was chatting to a friend and got warned for discussing a topic which Discord deemed wrong for my age 22:25:25 if people moved for freebsd as the official, and the only official, i'd probably do it too, not worth my time to fight and argue 22:25:39 a mod read my dms, as part of the tos they can read your messages without permission 22:26:16 iirc it took me 7 attempts to finally purge Discord from my life 22:26:29 Started at 15, I was successful when I was 17 iirc 22:26:54 that is how dependant I was on it... and why I cant ever go back and let that dependency on a centralised platform develop ever again 22:28:34 most of the people I know who shared the same ironclad views as me, have given up 22:29:23 yes i was somewhat that person in my 20s but the reason why these platforms is well explained i the wiki after all 22:29:44 I have thought about it, a lot recently 22:30:22 jailing and virtualising the client away from the host, rotating my /29 block of IPv4 to randomise my traffic between separate accounts 22:30:43 but I concluded that no matter how hard you try, you can never truly maintain anonymity... 22:31:53 its always an illusion, we all know weakpoints in our opsec which we will never share, not even to our closest friends, its all a facade, an illusion to make others think they cant figure out everything about us, but if they truly tried hard enough, you could probably deanonymise everyone in this channel, and find out large amounts of into about them... 22:32:18 we all have a digital footprint, and if you think about it too much like I do, keeps you up at night... 22:33:15 but there is no way to "safely" use a proprietary platform, obviously jailing and or virtualising the client, routing it through different vpn tunnels or via tor to try to mask yourself as best as possible helps, but it isn't flawless 22:33:32 Luckily most people don't care. Do what you can to stay private and don't worry about it. 22:33:45 in fact, sometimes the safest way to use them is to blend in... use windows, use no vpn, use a normal isp... you wont stand out 22:33:56 nobody will ever find you suspicious enough to bother looking into you 22:34:53 JustBleedFan: ah but we are all paranoid people, some much more than others, trust nobody... 22:36:16 This is bordering on one of those gangstalking delusions. 22:36:30 pretty much 22:36:59 but i don't know what your threat profile is so maybe you have reasons 22:37:25 but like, if you do have a good reason, chatting about this here isn't a good use of your time 22:37:48 dw I haven't done anything that bad, I just have a past of being targetted my entire life, trusting the wrong people, revenge attacks etc 22:38:02 so usually I like to be completely unknown until I learn to trust someone 22:38:53 the only way you will know what I look like is if you see me in person... (unless I do a talk and then my face will be online... fuck) 22:44:59 anyways this got a little personal, thats one way to fuck your opsec hehe