00:07:08 <SponiX> ivy: then  I should change mine to 16-CURRENT as I like even numbers better
00:10:11 <ivy> uh, sure, if you like
00:20:52 <SponiX> BIGGER Number = Better
00:27:50 <regis> Don't CURRENT if you don't need to. I use CURRENT due to an edge and uncommon stuff and working with also HEAD drivers.
00:36:47 <farhan> Going to gloat here - Just got a wifi device sending back USB callbacks.
00:36:51 <farhan> First time ever on FreeBSD :)
00:39:50 <ek> farhan: client-side?
00:40:01 <farhan> sorry? client side?
00:40:24 <ek> wifi device callbacks.
00:40:35 <farhan> I don't follow what you mean by client side?
00:40:50 <ek> Fromt he wifi device or the FBSD wifi device?
00:41:10 <farhan> from the wifi device
00:41:19 <ek> Nice!
00:41:27 <farhan> as in, the wifi device is receiving frames from the air and sending them to the USB stack, which my driver is receiving.
00:41:58 <farhan> That was *not* easy
00:42:02 <ek> Yes. I get it. Very cool!
00:42:09 <SponiX> packets are going into the bit bucket ?
00:42:22 <farhan> bit bucket?
00:42:32 <ek> farhan: /dev/null
00:42:38 <ek> Trash
00:42:44 <SponiX> Yeah, if packets are getting dropped. You put down the bit bucket to catch them
00:42:55 <farhan> rigt now they aren't processed at all
00:43:33 <farhan> The next step is to pipe them into ieee80211_input
00:43:56 <ek> Perfect. Forward is progress.
01:05:10 <SponiX> farhan: 1st time writing a driver?
01:05:24 <farhan> 2nd
01:05:42 <farhan> but I didn't really know what I was doing the firs ttime.
01:07:01 <SponiX> sounds like a real adventure
01:12:07 <farhan> its a lot of reading and reading...
01:12:22 <farhan> I would like a wiki account to write my notes there too
01:14:22 <regis> farhan: see https://wiki.freebsd.org/LinuxKPI to get ideas on stuff needing to be ported :) Different stack, may be less boring than this driver stuff.
01:16:00 <farhan> I have no problems with that layer, but its an example of some inconsistencies in how to approach FreeBSD's current position vis-a-vis Linux
01:17:39 <regis> There's no vis-a-vis.
01:34:29 <farhan> I don't follow?
01:35:35 <ivy> farhan: if you want a wiki account, please see https://wiki.freebsd.org/Wiki/About#How_To_Create_an_Account
01:47:35 <regis> farhan: I commented directly on below your "vis-a-vis" comment. What's there to follow.
02:20:40 <SponiX> I wonder how much effort is involved in doing the "drm" stuff that comes from Linux. They are on like kernel 6.6 and I need it for like kernel 6.14 (current stable)
02:21:02 <SponiX> probably no small task, and that is why they tend to lag behind so far
02:22:30 <regis> SponiX: https://github.com/freebsd/drm-kmod ?
02:24:13 <regis> SponiX: amdgpu + drm work flawlessly for a few years now on FreeBSD
02:25:57 <SponiX> regis: Yes, my RX 5700 is working very well. But I would really like my 9070 XT GPU working in FreeBSD also
02:26:31 <SponiX> It only got support in Linux kernel 6.13.4 if my memory is correct
02:30:57 <SponiX> https://github.com/freebsd/drm-kmod/wiki/Porting-a-new-version-of-DRM-drivers-from-Linux
02:31:25 <SponiX> Yeah, it is for sure a process I'm not ready to take on
06:46:48 <[tj]> SponiX: I think master on drm-kmod is approaching 6.9
06:58:35 <Macer> mason: going back to the earlier conversation. i mostly use containers in proxmox too. i want to migrate those to fbsd jails and hopefully they carry over properly. but yeah it would be nice to have a webui similar to proxmox to admin the containers and vms (i have 2 vms)
06:59:15 <Macer> realistically i only run 1 vm... it's a hackintosh vm to host bluebubbles lol
06:59:41 <Macer> i'm not sure if bhyve can pull something like that off
07:01:14 <[tj]> it depends on the hardward hackintoshed mac os wants
07:01:36 <[tj]> bhyve might be missing support for doing some lies, but that shouldn't be too hard to add
07:02:12 <Macer> i'd have to see. not having imessage was a big caveat of moving away from macos in favor of running linux on my ancient 2013 macbook pro
07:02:33 <Macer> i really wish freebsd had a more advanced version of gnome/wayland
07:03:21 <Macer> i woudln't mind running it on my "slightly modified" macbook pro if possible but i prefer gnome
07:03:53 <Macer> i swapped out the broadcom wifi module for an intel one and the ssd with an nvme using adapters
07:04:56 <Macer> i guess there were some attempts to make bsd derived out the box user workstations but they obviously don't compare to the linux flavors
08:10:42 <aoei> how do I know if post-reboot `freebsd-update install` (upgraded to 14.2 from 13.2 just now...) is hanging or just slow?
08:37:37 <aoei> ok nvm it was just slow :3
09:20:49 <bitblt> hello
09:21:12 <bitblt> what is the correct way to make a kind reminder about this? https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=286587
09:21:46 <bitblt> shall I send an email in x11⊙Fo or freebsd-x11⊙Fo?
09:45:03 <getz> bitblt: try asking in #freebsd-ports
13:47:22 <farhan> I get bug report emails, have for years, but cannot figure out where to turn them off.
13:48:03 <farhan> I've been through bugzilla a few times...the email says at the bottom I get them because "You are on the CC list for the bug". but these are new bugs I didn't sign up for.
13:48:10 <farhan> and that I'm an assignee.
13:49:13 <farhan> any ideas on how to turn that off?
13:55:33 <zi> You select "Preferences" at the top and then select "Email Preferences" and uncheck boxes
13:56:12 * zi is skeptical of what "I've been through bugzilla a few times" means
14:02:44 <farhan> all "I want to receive mail when" are checked. All "but not when" are checked.
14:06:03 <zi> Click "Disable all mail" and then only enable the stuff you want
14:07:09 <farhan> Done - I still get them :/
14:07:45 <farhan> I'm on the CC list - not sure how/why
14:12:39 <farhan> I think I got it...thank you GenAI - My general preferences somehow had me on the CC list.
16:08:50 <farhan> one project at a time, but if usb modeswitching is a common thing, it perhaps should be in usbconfig.
16:20:51 <[tj]> one project at a time? You mean like one project and one idea a day? Right
16:21:01 <farhan> [tj]: haha :)
16:21:13 <[tj]> Think of small projects as snacks between meals
16:21:24 <farhan> [tj]: I have a personal list - there's another driver I want to bring to FreeBSD after my current one.
16:21:46 <[tj]> Things arrive best small and often
16:22:01 <[tj]> Drivers kind of break that as you need a lot of driver to do anything
17:07:03 <CrtxReavr> All my src contributions have been adding chip IDs to existing ethernet or sound card drivers.
17:14:41 <mzar> neat
17:15:13 <farhan> CrtxReavr: thank you for that!
17:16:32 <farhan> Look at the OS, or any OS, like an ecosystem. You start with tinkerers, then edge-case users, developers, and then production users -- and obviously some people jump order in the heirarchy
17:17:02 <farhan> If I'm a brand new FreeBSD user and on day 1 my wifi card doesn't work and I'm told "buy hardware that works" I very well might just go ack to Linux.
17:17:32 <farhan> but if some other arbitrary feature doesn't work, like graphics acceleration, I might not necessarily care on day 1.
17:18:59 <CrtxReavr> These were instances of "WTF!  This is Intel Gbit!  Why doesn't it work?"
17:19:50 <CrtxReavr> Someone suggested it was just some minor tweak, and just adding the chip ID to the driver may "fix" it, and they were right.
17:20:04 <CrtxReavr> Worked multiple times.
17:36:11 <tsoome_> what do you think, how linux got those cards working?;)
17:38:06 <tsoome_> I have hunch that it was not "I very well might just go back to Windows" ;)
17:57:36 <farhan> tsoome_: There were a few factors, but basically they focused on getting any and all devices working on Linux and spent time writing guides on how to do it.
17:58:15 <CrtxReavr> tsoome_, from my experience, Linux device driver quality is very poor.
17:58:20 <farhan> it is.
17:58:40 <CrtxReavr> Every flip the bit on verbose SCSI logging on Linux?
17:58:47 * CrtxReavr shudders.
17:59:52 <CrtxReavr> I used to hang on an IRC channel with Alan Cox.
18:00:14 <CrtxReavr> I once told him I thought the Linux IP stack sucked. . . and he agreed with me.
18:00:48 <farhan> I've seen stuff that makes no sense. For example, their implementation ot realtek 8188 PCI has (had?) a function A that called B, that called A with another condition that then did whatever it needed.
18:01:05 <CrtxReavr> (Alan Cox wrote the Linux IP stack, if you were un-aware.)
18:01:26 <farhan> They have conflicting naming conventions. For example, BSD will do rtwn_usb_attach and rtwn_pci_attach.
18:01:39 <farhan> Linux will have the same function name.
18:02:50 <CrtxReavr> Linux is often stealing code from BSD. . .
18:03:06 <CrtxReavr> The BSD license sadly allows that.
18:03:16 <farhan> and vice versa...that's fine.
18:04:53 <ring0_starr> but the users reward that
18:05:24 <farhan> that's an Open Source vs Free Software discussion
18:05:36 <ring0_starr> instead of taking BSD as a base and actually improving upon it, linux just adds support for everything imaginable, all the tiniest dumbest variations in hardware
18:06:04 <farhan> ring0_starr: that's a good thing.
18:06:06 <ring0_starr> so the result is that linux is this giant bloated pile of shit and bsd has old code for sure but at least it's nice
18:06:22 <ring0_starr> no, it encourages hardware vendors to do crap like that
18:07:39 <farhan> BSD probably does not drive hardware vendors in general.
18:08:46 <ring0_starr> there used to be standardization efforts
18:10:28 <ring0_starr> tech is already caving in on itself with complexity
18:10:49 <farhan> ring0_starr: feel free to disagree with me, but I do think *every* device should be supported, at least entire classes of devices.
18:11:07 <ring0_starr> who designs those devices like that
18:11:41 <ring0_starr> we have things like SMBus, PCI, EISA, and so on from industry forums, but then you have these chinese SoC vendors who each do their own thing and it's all a mess
18:13:27 <ring0_starr> so complicated enough as-is.  i can't even get bsd to run consistently on this single board computer i have.  when it panics, i can't even get a dump because it freezes
18:13:53 <farhan> ugh.
18:13:58 <farhan> sorry to hear that.
18:14:04 <ring0_starr> and that's the main problem, is that the world is running at a million miles per hour without getting any of the fundamentals right
18:14:39 <farhan> ring0_starr: I appreciate that perspective, not just saying that, but I think BSD is over-indexed on that.
18:14:52 <farhan> there is a level of "chasing shiny things" that should be done.
18:15:04 <ring0_starr> the hardware is random, the variations are random, the documentation is horrible
18:15:53 <ring0_starr> i was adding support for an SoC in some DMA code and for some reason linux shifted the physical address over by 2 bits
18:16:07 <ring0_starr> couldn't figure out why that is by reading the manual at all
18:17:01 <ring0_starr> the guy who wrote the linux driver for it explained and pointed to this one specific line where it said something about "word-sized addresses"
18:17:25 <ring0_starr> see if i didn't get told that by a person, i would've probably not figured it out
18:17:27 <farhan> ring0_starr: we should document our notes to help BSD here.
18:18:00 <farhan> empower others with documentation
18:19:20 <wavefunction> Please.
18:19:59 <farhan> some is "easy", like how Free/Open&Net differ on naming conventions
18:23:43 <CrtxReavr> I fail to see the value of Free, Open, & Net remaining separate projects.
18:24:45 <CrtxReavr> 'Course. . . . the Net people would insist on keeping VAX & Sparc IPX alive, and hold things back. . .
18:25:13 <farhan> I would say Net and Free need to merge, while OpenBSD can remain separate.
18:25:29 <ring0_starr> no, because then you're going to just kill off vax support
18:26:11 <farhan> I'm genuinely not certain if that's sarcasm or not.
18:26:13 <ring0_starr> netbsd's thing is compatibility
18:26:29 <CrtxReavr> (with jurassic junk)
18:27:08 <farhan> with all due respect, I personally do not see value in that.
18:27:24 <ring0_starr> and that's the reason why forks exist.
18:27:42 <ring0_starr> you can focus on what you see value in
18:27:44 <CrtxReavr> Look at the CPU cycles per kWatt.
18:27:56 <farhan> openbsd is different...They are perfectly fine with trying radical new things and that's good/healthy.
18:28:55 <CrtxReavr> Oh, and then there's DragonFlyBSD.
18:29:26 <CrtxReavr> Which was basically bourne of a pissing match amonst FreeBSD kernel devs.
18:29:35 <CrtxReavr> +g
18:29:46 <ring0_starr> hammerfs wouldn't exist
18:30:00 <ring0_starr> BSD is supposed to be a research operating system
18:30:22 <CrtxReavr> That's what -CURRENT is for.
18:33:48 <regis> > BSD is supposed to be a research operating system
18:34:15 <regis> ring0_starr: This channel is FreeBSD-focused and you're talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Software_Distribution
18:34:39 <farhan> anyone has the right to fork this or any other OS. I might not like it, but its their choice.
18:36:50 <farhan> regis: research, not production?
18:37:00 <paulf> Did DragonFly ever get more than one FreeBSD dev? seems like a vanity project to me
18:37:16 <farhan> paulf: a filesystem is vanity?
18:37:42 <CrtxReavr> It kinda was. . . forked FreeBSD 4.x and built a sand castle with it.
18:37:59 <CrtxReavr> Granted, 5.x had major issues.
18:38:01 <regis> farhan: I'm pointing out that the other commenter mentioned principles driving the "BSD" which is dead for 29 years now.
18:38:16 <farhan> ahh, excuse me.
18:41:23 <ring0_starr> regis, so then FreeBSD is a fork of 4.4BSD that focuses on being production-ready
18:41:38 <ring0_starr> you get to focus on the aspects of OS-dom that are important to you :)
18:45:47 <regis> ring0_starr: I wanted to point out how "BSD is supposed to be a research operating system" outdated and irrelevant is where it comes to the OS this channel is focused on.
18:46:02 <farhan> +1
18:46:59 <ring0_starr> okay..?
18:53:58 <CrtxReavr> I think "BSD is supposed to be a research operating system"
18:54:31 <CrtxReavr> throws back to the Bell Labs/Sun fiasco and related court cases.
18:54:38 <CrtxReavr> Or what lead up to them.
18:59:32 <jemius> Would you say that it's "difficult" to create / maintain software packages for FreeBSD?
19:00:20 <CrtxReavr> They have a strong mentorship program and set of documentation.
19:15:43 <paulf> so what's new and/or borked in current
19:17:26 <paulf> no gdb 16 :-(
19:17:41 <farhan> lldb?
19:18:06 <paulf> not for me at least not for the foreseeable future
19:22:47 <paulf> oh dear seems to be plenty of brokedness around ptrace and signals :-((((
19:27:41 <farhan> I'd love to see a kgdb equivlanet in llvm or lldb or whatever..I'm not familiar with all this toolchain stuff