09:00:41 I can't figure how to get changes to ~/.login.conf working 09:01:42 I'm trying to set times.allow for my own user, and I've been trying to set times.deny to a short interval of a few minutes to test whether the changes are taking 09:02:10 I obviously read the manpage, I ran cap_mkdb 09:02:42 mtll: you cannot set times.login in ~/.login.conf, this is supposed to be set by administrator in /etc/login.conf 09:02:53 times.allow rather 09:03:14 I see 09:03:30 is there some documentation on what can and can not be set in .login.conf 09:04:22 because the manpage is very vague about it 09:04:29 as far as i can tell, no, but there probably should be. if you don't find any documenation on this feel free to open a PR and cc ivy⊙fo 09:04:44 <[tj]> " typically those which do not involve authentication, resource limits and accounting." 09:05:05 [tj]: this is quite vague though 09:05:08 [tj]: yeah, like I said, pretty vague 09:05:16 <[tj]> uhuh 09:05:25 i agree it seems "obvious" that times.allow shouldn't be allowed, but there is a thing recently where users want to lock themselves out of their own accounts 09:05:42 so I guess I gotta make some login class, add my user to it, and my changes to /etc/login.conf 09:05:50 like, "i spend too much time on freebsd, only allow me to log in during these particular times" 09:06:11 ivy: yeah that's exactly what I want to do. and I mean it doesn't really matter where I put it, it's my personal desktop, and I'm the only user and administrator anyway 09:06:12 <[tj]> that is probably the sentence to clarify, is ~/.login.conf applied to anything other than environment variables and does it apply to all 09:06:21 <[tj]> otherwise the man page change is going to be quite intense 09:06:58 i think we can just say that nothing listed in the 'authentication' table may be added by the user themselves 09:07:09 we'll see what makes sense, at least i think a PR is justified here 09:07:26 just trying to stop myself from going 4 hours past my bedtime writing code when I get hyperfocused, and end up losing a bunch of sleep, and writing a bunch of shitty code that I'll have to rewrite anyway :P 09:07:39 <[tj]> well login.conf won't help you there either and that is in the man page 09:08:19 <[tj]> "Further enforcement over the life of a session requires a separate daemon to monitor transitions from an allowed period to a non-allowed one" 09:08:26 well times.allow seems like it'll work, along with a cronjob to lock my screen, right? 09:08:56 <[tj]> I don't think your screen locker is going via login 09:09:03 <[tj]> thats a guess based on a feeling 09:09:33 hrm. I did this before on linux with pam_time, although that doesn't seem to exist for openpam 09:09:35 it probably should do, but a lot of things don't... 09:09:41 (i noticed this while implementing pam_userjail) 09:11:48 worst case, I could always just cronjob a reboot with a 5 minute warning to save any files and such. be a bit annoying, but better sleep is worth it 09:16:37 this is what I liked about pam_time; pretty much anything that touches authentication uses pam, so this wasn't an issue 09:17:25 I guess I could port pam_time to openpam myself, it can't be that complicated. More effort than I'd like to invest right now though 09:25:35 <[tj]> Just don’t start right before bedtime 09:25:54 :D 09:26:13 well, the good news is xdm does interact with login, because I was just able to set a short test window with times.deny 09:26:26 let's see if xlock does as well, more doubtful about that 09:28:19 it does not 09:28:29 <[tj]> well xdm is creating a login, but xlock isn't 09:28:35 <[tj]> can you create a new terminal in a deny time? 09:28:46 yes 09:29:08 you mean cause of the login shell 09:29:16 I guess that doesn't actually do any authentication 09:29:48 eh fine I'll just set up a cronjob with a reboot 09:38:17 I guess an alternative way to do all this would be to add two cronjobs as root with pw lock/unlock 09:40:14 <[tj]> I used to have a pomodoro timer which locked the screen after each interval 09:40:23 <[tj]> but I could just log back in 09:40:46 I used to have gum that helped me quit smoking 09:40:50 but I could just smoke a cigarette 09:40:50 probably fine just as a reminder yeah 09:42:57 <[tj]> it was "sleep 1800; i3lock " 09:45:13 hah 09:46:52 just trying to figure out the best way to warn me(via stumpwm) from the cronjob now 09:48:48 oh right, someone already made a little script for running stumpwm commands from the shell; I can just use that 09:49:52 echo 'go to sleep, neo...' 09:58:23 huh, stumpish doesn't work, because stumpwm doesn't show up in pgrep 10:00:54 shows up in htop just fine, under my user 10:04:59 maybe because it's spawned by xdm, which is run as root? 10:05:10 but the xterms started from stumpwm do show up 10:11:15 ps wwaux? 10:12:00 mtl 39183 0.0 0.1 1436272 91916 - Ss 11:25 0:02.43 /home/mtl/stumpwm/stumpwm 10:12:09 or pgrep -f 10:12:09 gotta go though, I'll have to figure this out later... 10:12:48 pgrep has stupid footshooting option -v, which is not verbose 10:13:28 i have at least killed everything in my machine with pkill -v 10:13:31 :p 10:13:40 at least once 10:18:40 pgrep -Slf is good way, but i like ps more to search stuff, eg this is for finding swapped out procs: ps wwauxd | awk 'NR==1||$8~/W/{print$0}' | less -InS 10:18:43 :p 10:19:14 i was not aware freebsd even supported swapping out entire process anymore 10:20:07 partially out i would guess 10:20:50 why does it matter? 10:20:53 are you sure W doesn't mean "Marks an idle interrupt thread", per ps(1)? 10:21:24 root@ixia:/usr/local/etc/bird.d # ps wwauxd|awk '$8 ~ /W/ {print}' 10:21:25 root 2 0.0 0.0 0 16 - WL 10:30 0:01.62 - [clock] 10:21:25 root 11 0.0 0.0 0 256 - WL 10:30 0:03.21 - [intr] 10:21:31 these are certainly not swapped out... 10:22:30 actually 10:22:45 there are multiple w's there 10:24:13 stupid eh 10:26:31 where's swappers tho? 10:26:34 top -bao swap 1000000 ? 10:26:39 i'm not sure i follow what you mean... you are matching on $8, which is 'state', and there is only one documented meaning for W 10:27:48 if by "where's swappers" you mean how do you find processes which have been swapped to disk, as i said, i do not believe freebsd supports this 10:28:02 i may be wrong here but i don't think swapping processes to disk has been a thing since like, 3BSD 10:28:23 it's basically pointless as soon as you have proper VM paging, which we got with VAX 10:28:24 top -bwao swap 1000000 maybe 10:28:44 there are two w's 10:28:56 another is down in manpage 10:29:21 can you please show the parts of the manpage you are talking about? i only see one 10:30:24 W The process is swapped out. 10:30:34 i only saw this 10:30:48 well top shows something? 10:30:50 hm, that text does not occur in my ps(1). what freebsd version are you on? 10:31:01 it's changed now eh? 10:31:46 damn 10:31:52 in current it's all gone 10:32:55 and there i can't check what top would show 10:32:58 ah, https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/?id=62e6ca0f07e448da27cb2cc8165e749e7fdfcd7e 10:32:59 but it exists there 10:33:08 so only top?! 10:33:18 surely there's still ps option 10:33:29 except i don't see it 10:33:39 no, there is no ps option because freebsd doesn't support swapping out processes 10:33:50 this commit was just removing the vestigates of obsolete code 10:34:04 hmm 10:34:14 what does it swap out then? 10:34:23 parts of proc memory so sure 10:34:32 that's what top shows 10:35:29 maybe definition issue 10:35:54 but it definitely swaps out some memory the proc is using 10:36:09 hence that one is swapped out, even if partially 10:36:17 what's the other way? 10:38:13 by definition whole idea is to move memory out of ram 10:38:55 i think someone swapped me out 10:38:56 i have no idea how different oses do it 10:39:10 right after birth? 10:39:12 :p 10:39:58 unsure what complete swapout means 10:40:10 kernel still knows it has it running 10:40:27 and what benefits are 10:40:47 i don't even know fbsd design that much 10:46:27 ketas: historically, "swapping" means moving the entire address space of a process to disk. "paging" means moving individual pages of a process to disk. freebsd does paging, not swapping 10:48:03 ketas, no, like, to flash 10:48:06 there is no ps flag for "this process has 1 or more pages paged out", as far as i know, since this is not really interesting 10:48:44 ah that 10:48:48 riiight 10:49:07 but who calls it like that 10:49:17 everyone, really? 10:49:28 no one says "this process is swapped out" nowadays, or if they do, they're probably wrong 10:50:09 but the location is still referred a swap, hence... 10:50:58 yes, and "swapping" is used to refer to pages being moved to/from disk, but that's different from the terminology used to refer to the actual state of a process 10:52:02 statistically it does not really matter if you have 1 or 100 pages paged out to swap and counting those will likely require too much work. 10:53:20 what top does then? 10:54:00 is this about virt and rss 10:54:04 sure, it mentiones it being approx 10:54:32 it probably fudges the maths 10:54:43 rss is ram use iirc 10:54:50 virt and rss is nothing to do with swap 10:55:06 virt = virtual memory allocated to the process, rss = actual process size in memory (sort of, it's complicated) 10:55:33 neither of those tell you if any pages have been paged to disk 10:55:42 why is it virtual tho? 10:55:53 yes; the only reason I connect swap to that is that those two are traditionally considered memory stats and swapped pages are also 10:56:12 well, "traditionally" if you're me, idk if it's a real tradition 10:56:19 to say it's imaginary memory? 10:56:26 ketas, correct 10:56:26 may or may not exist as real ram? 10:56:33 ketas: it's virtual because BSD is a virtual memory operating system 10:56:51 imagine you mmap() a 4TB file into memory, your virtual memory size instantly jumps to 4TB 10:57:06 this doesn't mean you're using 4TB of memory, it just means 4TB worth of virtual address space is mapped to your process 10:57:11 yeah that's not ram space of memory 10:57:15 memory overcommit at work 10:57:16 huh? 10:57:22 Koston: no, nothing to do with overcommit 10:57:30 hence virtual 10:57:40 ivy, well if you *do* have well over 4TB, then not 10:57:46 I was assuming you don't, because most people don't. 10:57:47 ketas: right, it's virtual in the sense it doesn't refer to physical memory pages. it may do, but it may not 10:57:52 it's address space in use, not memory in use 10:58:02 what's opposite of virtual memory os? 10:58:10 Koston: mmap() does not rely on overcommit. overcommit is when you attempt to map pages that don't exist. having a page in virtual memory doesn't mean it's mapper 10:58:21 s/mapper/mapped 10:58:31 i think this was before even my sperm existed 10:58:41 excuse you. 10:58:54 i don't know history that much 10:59:19 ketas, the opposet of a VM OS might be an OS where the entire address space is in memory, though I am too eepy to do the very basic groundwork to search about it 10:59:40 ketas, smaller embedded systems running on hardware without an MMU. it just means an address refers directly to a location in physical RAM. 11:00:03 oh that 11:00:04 aha 11:00:13 yes they have them still 11:00:15 without an MMU or not using the MMU if there is one 11:00:16 typically these are systems that don't have an OS, just some software running directly on the hardware 11:00:33 the nature of OSness can be debated there 11:00:38 let's not 11:00:41 i vague recall wrt54g 11:00:45 is the stand libc you're using an OS? 11:00:52 some early Unix systems ran without virtual memory - for example, Unix on PDP-11. that's why PDP-11 had to swap out the entire process, it couldn't page individual pages 11:00:55 iirc that has no mmu? 11:00:58 or someone lied 11:01:06 but since VAX gave us virtual memory, Unix doesn't work like this 11:01:31 it has no pages? 11:02:03 and page was like individual memory allocation unit? 11:02:34 should i attach a tape machine with a drum roll sound to the access bus for the swap disk to fill the lab with drum roll noise when someone tries to continue running a programme they had swapped out 11:02:55 a page is the smallest amount of memory you can address via the MMU 11:03:13 since it would be infeasible to address every byte individually, memory is divided into pages 11:03:18 ketas, you should pick up a copy of Modern Operating Systems, or maybe Design and Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System 11:03:33 for how much money, from which bookstores 11:03:44 MelMalik: free from anna's archive... 11:03:54 it's too difficult i'm afraid 11:03:59 and if I don't want to commit piracy? 11:04:04 i would also need to read on hw first maybe 11:04:14 then pay some $ to support the freebsd developers who put a huge amount of effort into writing it 11:04:27 former is much easier to read and much easier than you'd expect imho 11:04:31 would buying the book not do that? or is there not a way to buy the book 11:04:52 i would maybe choose lecture videos first 11:05:00 okay, changing tack: what are their ISBNs 11:05:06 the lecture video series by McKusick is wicked expensive 11:05:07 a book without anything else is just hell 11:05:10 MelMalik: oh, maybe i misunderstood the question, i thought you were suggesting the books were hard to find 11:05:13 Modern Operating Systems is definitely good read, worth every penny 11:05:18 ketas, a book is hell? 11:05:20 ivy, hard to find for me, maybe. 11:05:55 but for someone who is actually looking, probably not 11:06:07 i mean reading a thick book, without doing any practical tests of something by the side 11:06:18 is super difficult somehow 11:06:20 i don't actually own FreeBSD D&I but i think i bought my copy of 4.4BSD D&I on Amazon 11:07:44 i haven't been in uni but there's a reason why they have mix of all this probably :p 11:08:02 my main complaint about anything ever is that the Tcl documentation in troff edition does not have cross references because it's troff and not mdoc 11:08:27 the cross references are just stated naked, i.e. as the manpage names 11:08:31 with (n) 11:08:35 funnily it depends on written material too, eg out manpages are really good 11:08:48 whoever made it all over decadea 11:08:51 s 11:11:01 FreeBSD documentation quality has suffered over the years, unfortunately 11:11:09 but it's still heaps ahead of Linux 11:11:28 why? 11:11:44 writing documentation is a lot of work and interest in operating systems has waned 11:12:54 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36myc8wQhLo 11:13:31 interest in what 11:13:41 oses exist? 11:14:09 and it like doesn't need to be one person... 11:14:21 meh docs are hard 11:14:38 i have only wrote one manpage, for my own stuff 12:18:32 write doxygen comments and call it a day :3 16:07:28 hey Im trying to bring up freebsd powerpc/power on a ibm system p5 520 power5+ but it's only detecting 128MB which isn't even enough to load the kernel 16:13:01 * flyback rubs vdamewood on his ibm system p5 520 16:13:05 *CANUCKED*- 16:22:22 * flyback wonders if linux or fbsd will be the first to still support this big endian turd 16:34:20 flyback: my friend sent one of those to the e-waste bin a week ago :) 16:43:52 yeah I might have to do the same 16:44:09 although I just made progress 16:44:21 disableing msi and iommu it didn't kernel panic or opps as much 16:44:38 it couldn't find rootfs but that might be the fault of gentoo not having the ide driver loaded 16:44:47 im playing with freebsd also to see which one has more progress 16:46:55 yep looks like that is the fault of gentoo not having the ide driver compiled in 16:48:03 actually I could run both freebsd and linux if I have a licence for this power5 for their virtualization engine 16:48:15 or I *cough* just so happen to find a licence code lying around 18:32:17 flyback: power5 is like 20 years old, isn't it? 18:34:10 i think fbsd only supports power7 and higher from the power isa 18:37:27 the main ppc page says power7, the wiki says power5. hmm.