03:21:31 acu: https://github.com/gokcehan/lf 03:23:00 llua: I would rather say that Windows has been put in a death spiral since Windows 8, and Microsoft just keeps accelerating its death by blindly following the latest tech trends that benefits only the activist investors. 04:02:31 remiliascarlet: not sure how that was relevant to the question being asked, but sure, don't let that stop you from hating. 04:03:21 llua: Obviously responding to this: "it is a dead os" 04:03:51 You didn't asked a question. 04:03:54 which was a response about windows xp 04:53:38 https://cacm.acm.org/practice/free-and-open-source-software-and-other-market-failures/ has some windows vista foo in it 04:53:58 I won’t remind you how bad Windows Vista was; I will let author Neil Gaiman do that, by quoting what he wrote in his blog on March 31, 2008: 04:54:54 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poul-Henning_Kamp fbsd developer, good article 04:56:25 https://people.freebsd.org/~phk/ 05:07:05 I only heard about Windows being a thing a couple years ago, tried it, got frustrated, and went straight back to Linux. 05:13:50 minix linux open/net/free bsd's ...in 1991 solaris 2.1 for x86, or 1995 solaris 2.5.1 for x86 $600.00 bucks. no compilers 05:14:40 imagine paying $600 for os no compilers 05:15:08 https://imgur.com/RWy9j4x sun 2/120 1984 $16,900.00 05:15:52 multiuser 3 05:17:28 bill joy he did vi, nfs, bsd! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Joy 05:18:09 tcp/ip bsdsockets. 05:19:36 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Berkeley_Software_Distribution 05:20:32 that is before bsdi and open/net/free bsd... 05:23:04 windows a thing ? you cant buy a computer without that os's coming on it, unless it crapple! 05:23:19 the winblows tax! 05:23:38 apple and m$ been assholes from day 1 05:24:24 see the movie ---> Steve Jobs: The Man in the Machine, last half of movie covers some of stupid 05:25:41 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement 05:26:06 The earliest recorded versions of the Double Irish-type BEPS tools are by Apple in the late 1980s 05:26:23 they don't even pay taxes! 05:27:17 foxconn empolyee make $12.00 and apple 300% mark up on i-shit, witch ends up in landfills 05:34:23 apple, nvidia, m$ fighting for most valuable company 05:35:08 AI the new dot com bubble.. 05:43:56 remiliascarlet, that IBM for dumping $1 billion into linux in 2000, and then $1billion into linux in 2013, just to fight off m$, of course the redhat purchase is icing on the cake. 05:44:14 thank IBM correction 05:45:02 https://itsfoss.com/ibm-invest-1-billion-linux/ example 05:45:47 IBM has been a Linux supporter for a long time. In fact, this is not the first time when IBM has invested in Linux. Back in 2000, IBM had invested $1 billion in Linux with a dedicated team of over 1500 engineers. 05:52:08 rennj: The big irony is that nowadays, Microsoft has among the biggest says within the direction of the Linux kernel. 05:52:48 intel suckered minix into their intel ME ..the BMC. they didnt even give back 05:53:01 https://itsfoss.com/fact-intel-minix-case/ 05:53:18 yeah m$ purchase of github 05:53:34 but they hoover opensauce into copilot, but not their own code 05:54:20 m$ purchase of linkedin 05:54:31 monopolies, 05:55:05 when m$ bought hotmail.com a fbsd base htmp email server 05:55:14 when m$ bought hotmail.com a fbsd base html email server 06:02:39 https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/hardware/intels-secret-cpu-on-chip-management-engine-me-runs-on-minix-os/ 06:02:49 ring -3 06:03:07 ring -1 is vm foo, for vmware,virtualbox,xen,qemu 06:04:13 ring -2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode 06:06:41 I am looking forward to Raptor Eng. new boards which (crosses fingers) should be released this or next year, they already have a open source BMC on a fpga, but I think they are going to make a proper one for the next gen. 06:07:01 powerpc foo... 06:07:11 talon raptor 06:07:53 i just want a nice amiga computer/mister in checkmate display... 06:09:24 https://www.checkmate1500plus.com/IntroductionDisplays.aspx 06:09:32 put a mister in the back, covers couple dozen system up to 486 core in fpga 06:19:29 I bought a few very old PowerPC laptops, since it's the only type of RISC laptops that can be obtained easily. 06:21:05 Installed OpenBSD on the one, and NetBSD on the other. 06:21:28 Linux and FreeBSD are probably going to be too bloated for them though. 06:29:26 morphos 06:31:03 https://www.morphos-team.net/faq 06:31:30 More specifically, it runs on Powerbook G4, iBook G4, Mac mini G4, eMac, Power Mac G5, and Power Mac G4 06:32:25 https://www.morphos-team.net/hardware 06:33:32 rennj: Does it use glibc or musl? Because if it's glibc, then it would be a waste of time for me. 06:33:47 its amiga foo 06:34:12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MorphOS 06:35:53 nothing to do with linux or gnu 06:36:50 I said that Linux and FreeBSD are too bloated for macppc, and you said "morphos" like if it were a counter argument like in "actually, you can run this distro". 06:37:03 So I assumed it to be a Linux distro. 06:37:19 nothing to do with linux or freebsd..its amiga like os 06:37:32 So you can play Monkey Island, but not do much else with it. *G,D&R* 06:38:07 i got UNIX utilities on my amiga.. 06:38:24 geekgadgets from fred fish is x11,gnu foo on amiga and beos 06:39:02 besides doing amigados and arexx, ibm rexx, i can do gnu foo on my amiga.. 06:39:23 like dc,bc,awk,grep,ls and such 06:39:36 besides x11 server if i need it 06:41:00 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Fish 06:49:04 https://imgur.com/H2OQ1Qx ffmpeg sounthpark season24 amiga!!! 06:49:10 right from youtube 06:49:43 course its emulation, normal 68k hardware cant handle that 06:49:53 but the software is fine 06:52:23 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Dillon was in the photo with Fred Fish. but hey the amiga sucks right vkarlsen ? 06:59:47 lets boot up the amiga, i can do nc termbin.com 9999 right from the bin/ dir...so vkarlsen can figure it out... 07:03:17 http://termbin.com/zqa8 unix enough for you 07:04:37 https://imgur.com/8sWNmx5 and screensht 07:05:17 rennj: I see ed in the list. I approve. 07:05:30 i got diff dd du echo env 07:05:56 i give a shit if you approve 07:06:09 sound like a moron about money island 07:06:16 sound like a moron about monkey island 07:06:23 you have no clue 07:06:38 There's no need to get so worked up over a joke :D 07:06:47 oh its a joke now 07:06:56 didnt sound like it 07:07:12 Did to me 07:08:02 So you can play Monkey Island, but not do much else with it. *G,D&R* 07:08:06 some joke 07:08:19 Note the last part of my message 07:09:16 ? 07:09:30 gobbley gook 07:09:31 The grin, run and duck part? 07:15:44 the amiga outlived tons of boxes and is still rocking to day. https://www.apollo-computer.com/ 07:16:07 find a sun box that runs ffmpeg 07:16:14 good luck 07:19:21 sun ultra 45 /sparc or hp c8000 pa-risc... i doubt i could handle the stuff my amiga can do..let alone compile modern software. 07:19:43 sgi tezro / mips 07:19:45 dead 07:20:30 sparc/pa-risc/mips but the amiga keeps on jugging along. 08:26:09 Hello, all. This script invokes `pkg' with `-o ABI_FILE `, whereas I do not see an ABI_FILE option in pkg.conf(5). But it has ABI, which may well be the same thing as ABI_FILE. Is it an undocumented synonym? 08:36:40 Oh, -o ABI specifies the ABI directly as a string. So, ABI_FILE is an undocumented option of pkg? 08:49:04 I've got a bridge on my host for VNET jails. Can anyone think of a reason why at some point, packets (replies) to a jail address would be visible on the (host) igb0 in tcpdump, and would *not* be visible on the igb0bridge device in tcpdump? 08:49:54 I haven't messed with bridges in ages, but I was under the impression that if a bridge contains the physical interface, then packets would have to be visible on both or neither, and this is not the case now 08:58:28 More specifically, if I ping6 out from the jail, the echo request is seen on igb0bridge. But the echo reply appears on igb0, not igb0bridge. 09:15:58 ant-x: https://github.com/freebsd/pkg/blob/main/libpkg/pkg_elf.c#L837 09:34:07 I am sorry -- got disconnected because of a pooor internet connection, and then forwarded to #freebsd-irc. 09:35:39 ant-x: https://github.com/freebsd/pkg/blob/main/libpkg/pkg_elf.c#L837 09:54:34 vkarlsen, Yes, I have seen that file, and still see your URL in my clien't IRC log. I just wanted to cofirm that ABI_FILE is an /undocumented/ option of pkg configuration. 10:00:47 In other words, ABI_FILE is not mentioned in . 10:38:45 Who should I bug to add makecontext(3) variant that takes va_list argument instead of ellipsis? 15:06:24 cracauer, ping 15:16:24 FreeBSD has a concept of ABI: an string identifier of OS version and platrform, e.g.: FreeBSD:14:i386 . As fix to this bug: , the script for intalling 32-bit Wine was modified to take the ABI from the file /usr/lib32/libc.so.7 instead of from the output of `pkg config ABI | sed s/amd64/i386/`. When do these methods return different results on AMD64 hardware? 15:34:22 The latest pourdriere-devel is a game changer with PKG_NO_VERSION_FOR_DEPS=yes. No more unecessary builds! w00t! https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/commit/eef5ff69030c331452fea27a8cf18ab47f634789 15:41:02 yeah that was an interesting changelog to read the other day. I have yet to see how that feature pans out for production runs. probably not going to touch it for a while outside of testport 15:57:58 ant-x: I wouldn't have thought they would 15:58:26 oh 16:00:15 looking at the context, I think the point is that overriding ABI is wrong and one should be using ABI_FILE instead 16:00:38 less fragile 16:32:38 kevans, but is not ABI_FILE just another (undocumented in pkg.conf) way to override the native ABI? 16:34:37 kevans, You say it is less fragile, but I say it is /more/ fragile: for now it depends on the existence of a certain file at a certain location. 16:38:06 Is noitthe following a safe version: 16:38:08 ABI=FreeBSD:$(./freebsd-version | sed 's/\(^[0-9]*\).*/\1/g'):i386 16:39:19 ^ omit the ./ from the invocation of freebsd-version, it was a stub script. 16:39:49 ant-x: ABI derivation always relies on a file at a certain location 16:39:53 What I mean it: why not read the OS major version and then generate the ABI string ourselves? 16:40:25 kevans, but there is no such file in my FreeBSD 14.1, so the derivation does not work. 16:40:41 then you did not install lib32 and the 32-bit wine won't work anyways 16:40:57 kevans, but pkg should have taken care of it, no? 16:40:58 unless we bumped libc.so soversion, but i'm pretty sure we didn't 16:41:07 lib32 is part of the base install, nothing pkg 16:41:38 How come it is not there in my FreeBSD 14.1? Did I neglect to select it during setup? 16:41:44 yes 16:41:58 OK, thank you. 16:43:09 Back to my original proposal: since 32-bit Wine is for running i386 Windows programs, what is wrong with generating the ABI string my way, as shown above? -- get the currect major version of the OS, and append `i386'? 16:43:26 kevans, Is there a way to install lib32 without reinstalling the entire OS? 16:44:19 I hope the proper solution for running 32bit windows programs with 64bit wine is ready soon (that pkg32 hack additionally installs a 32bit wine and has some wrapper script to select and run the system installed 64bit wine or the 32bit one installed in HOME) 16:45:21 nimaje, Yes, it is. And it disagrees with the official Wine Qucik Start Guide, since wine tried to run the 32-bit version, and for x64 one has to execute wine-64. 16:46:25 In the mean time, can you please help me use what I got from the quarterly release? First, I think I have to get lib32 isntalled. 16:49:03 I think all that is required is extracting lib32.txz from https://download.freebsd.org/ftp/releases/amd64/14.1-RELEASE/ to / but not sure on that 16:49:41 nimaje, Does FreeBSD maintain some index of installed libraries and their versions and locations to help with linking? 16:50:14 maybe using freebsd-update would work, if you get it to accept that the lib32 component should be installed too 16:51:33 But then I have /really/ to update my OS, e.g. to 15.x ? 16:52:31 jbo: pong 16:53:02 cracauer, you're a rust person now, right? 16:53:12 No. 16:53:14 no the idea was, that it thinks some component should be installed and is missing and then fetches and installs that 16:53:17 cracauer, aye 16:53:30 cracauer, don't worry - I have a 2nd issue to bother you about :p 16:53:43 I want to check out the macro systems, but didn't have time yet. 16:54:00 cracauer, I remember you saying "I'm a rust developer now I guess" or something along those lines. 16:54:25 That was in the heat of the moment of not having reusable hashtables in C :-) 16:54:33 cracauer, hah 16:55:18 cracauer, so I haven an I226-LM NIC on my new mainboard. It generally works. the igc driver attached to it and I have been using it for months now. However, the interface only gives me 100 mbps speed (consistently) although ifconfig reports 1000base-T. 16:55:36 tried different cables, different switches, iperf to different hosts etc. it's always pretty much exactly 100 Mbps 16:55:50 who do I talk to about this? or where do I assign a PR for? 16:55:56 Isn't that a 2.5 Gb NIC? 16:55:58 yeah 16:56:03 but it's on a 1G network 16:56:37 Is the problem there when you connect it point to point without your switch? 16:56:54 yep 16:57:14 I'd mail the -net mailing list. 16:57:22 -net? is that net@ ? 16:58:06 errr, hold sec 16:58:37 freebsd-net@ 16:58:42 ack - thank you! 16:58:46 I'll re-run tests and then ask there. 16:58:53 I have just been doing 100mbps the past four months :p 16:59:01 nimaje, I understood your idea, and wanted to know which command to use wiht freebsd-update: not `upgrade', but `fetch'? 16:59:28 cracauer, You still need generic hashtables in C& 17:00:04 & -> ? 17:00:15 No, I used binary search. It was more of a general complaint about reusabilty of algorithms in C. 17:00:31 But if you know a good one I'm all ears. 17:00:32 yes, fetch and install, but no idea if it works 17:00:33 Imagine having templates 17:00:45 C++ **cough** 17:01:43 cracauer, apparently these are all the crates necessary for a console-only CSV viewer: https://bz-attachments.freebsd.org/attachment.cgi?id=251523 17:01:44 cracauer, That is a good point: I like making generic reusable algorithms in C, even containers. They are not in stdlib, but can be written once and reused many times. There are several approcaches to this. 17:01:53 nimaje, Will try. 17:06:19 cracauer, I have an (unfinished) concept if generic dynamic arrays: 17:11:30 cracauer, I cannot remember the generic container library that I especially liked, but there are many, e.g.: , 17:11:53 Thanks. 17:13:37 cracauer, I will be back if recall the one I /did/ like. And of course it great fun writing them yourself. 17:15:33 jbo, cracauer: "Object-oriented programming in C" : 17:22:19 very familiar with that. 17:22:39 plenty of OO C here: https://git.ugfx.io/uGFX/ugfx 17:23:43 uGFX in C. Will it work on desktops? 17:24:17 ant-x, yes. and unlike other embedded GUI systems it runs natively on a desktop and not via an emulator or simulator 17:26:48 ant-x, queue implementations: https://git.ugfx.io/uGFX/ugfx/src/branch/master/src/gqueue/gqueue.h 17:30:27 That rust dependency list looks impressive. Especially if you consider how many are version < 1.0. 17:40:09 yeah these days releasing often seems to be the goal, not releasing quality. 18:59:40 wazzup cocks installing openbsd 6.3 back on my laptop cos its better than the latest 7.5 xD 19:19:44 psionic: and that has something to do with FreeBSD ? 19:30:16 SponiX: Nope. Only something to do with c**ks, apparently. 19:39:45 That's probably enough of that. 20:10:51 Yes going down in quality xD 20:11:17 I went with obsd because fbsd nbsd wasnt working fine for the purpose at all so you are < 1 20:11:35 But rather saying its fagfox probably more trashed 20:11:56 I aint wanna bother with compiling old firefox on new systems so better going back 20:22:37 wooh, who knew my machine would be 10x quieter if it didnt have 90 million crc errors every read 20:22:59 wabkia: seems legit 20:28:50 back to the update woes :X lol 20:31:34 I think we should go back to http1 and gopher and stay there it was good that way it was 20:32:19 big agree 20:32:35 freebsd 11 was good i am not sure what is gained by updating 20:34:11 I need to narrow down why my desktop in 14 takes a pause for about 30 seconds every so often. It did not do that in 13. 20:34:49 I suppose I could boot back into 13 for a while and see if it is gone but it's unpredictable. 20:36:45 rwp you checked dmesg? 20:36:51 storage errors? 20:37:07 cron? hourly scrub? 20:38:29 Nothing of note in dmesg or /var/log/messages no zfs errors no zpool scrub running not coalesced with any cron run that I can determine. But thanks for the brainstorming! 20:39:01 I wasn't really expecting to debug it at this moment. I was just commiserating with the theme that these upgrades are not improving things. 20:40:40 It does seem to be more tied to doing something in Firefox and Firefox calls fsync() a lot making me suspicious that something that was previously asynchronous with zfs is now synchronous and causing the pause. But that's a guess in the dark by a lot. 20:40:49 ah yeah i hear you. two years ago this upgrade from 12.2 - 12.3 failed. i am finally deciding to work on it. i didnt have my server for a while, its tied to some creative work i was not doing. but now i want to do it and it should be a simple upgrade. too bad it doesnt want to boot after a minor revision lol 20:41:21 rwp its possible zfs needs to be told to update, thats an odd one though! 20:41:43 I am holding off upgrading the zpool because once I do that I can't boot back to the previous 13 anymore. 20:42:21 I shouldn't need to upgrade the zpool and it should just mean I can't take advantage of the new features. Features that I have never used before. 20:44:44 I have 16 GB of ram and right now it looks like I am sitting with 4GB in userland use and about 4GB in file system buffer cache, just eye-balling top statistics. So plenty of RAM not yet doing any work for me. I rebooted yesterday. 20:45:36 30 second pause definitely feels like something is being accessed, and timing out. 20:45:48 I fear that it will be either 1) kernel change that now causes this behavior 2) zfs change now causing this behavior 20:46:28 I haven't put a stopwatch to the pause but it's at least 15 seconds and less than 45 seconds somewhere. That does feel like a timeout of some sort. And if I wait then it pops back into responsiveness again. 20:47:32 thats rough =\ i def feel ya there. 20:47:47 I have 214 active snapshots but I run zfs-autosnap and have had 356139 snapshots in the zpool history which makes me wonder if something in there is now bogging down. 20:48:28 ZIL? 20:48:56 is there a man page that documents control codes? e.g., ctrl-c 20:49:09 Big upgrades like 13 to 14 could introduce problems in lots of places. It might be the graphics driver which is taking a pause and of course I am using X so the pause could be solely interactive through the graphics system and if I were on an ssh login I might not be experiencing it. 20:50:20 I suspected the ZIL with Firefox + all of those fsync() calls but I don't know. ZFS itself seems happy by looking at the top header stats. And I am usually not writing huge data on my desktop when I notice the problem. 20:50:41 markmcb, Control-C is handled by the tty driver. Look at "man stty" as a first start. 20:51:29 Run "stty -a" and look and see that intr=^C which is handled by the tty driver which then sends SIGINT to the foreground process group. 20:51:58 rwp, thanks! 20:53:11 Honestly the best source of documentation for all of this is Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment by the late W. Richard Stevens now maintained by Stephen A. Rago. It is a large tome in the latest edition. It is an excellent resource for these things. 20:53:51 I can't recommend it highly enough. There are other resources too but if I have only one recommendation then it is that one. 20:54:45 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Programming_in_the_Unix_Environment 20:58:14 markmcb, Secondly look at "man ascii" which documents the list of characters which includes the list of control codes in there too. 21:03:27 do i need opensolaris_load="YES" in addition to zfs_load="YES" in loader.conf? 21:04:23 maybe this changed from 12.1/2 to 12.3? its a new kernel, after all. 21:04:38 but i thought opensolaris was for dev versions of zfs 21:07:52 I know nothing about opensolaris_load="YES" and don't have it here and so "need" would be a definite no. But no idea if it does something for you or not. 21:08:53 zpool version returns "zfs-2.2.4-FreeBSD_g256659204" "zfs-kmod-2.2.4-FreeBSD_g256659204" here. 21:18:51 my version doesnt return lol, or im getting the property wrong 21:20:39 "zpool version" 21:21:45 i guess that didn't exist in 2017 :) 21:23:09 I am on 14 now. And that has switched to the OpenZFS upstream source. 21:24:57 looks like that happened in 13, but im just going from 12.2 to 12.3 hmmmmm 21:25:25 maybe i just add in the opensolaris_load to loader.conf if its not going to wipe the pool 21:25:35 zdb reports version: 5000 21:27:04 As I recall the feature version was converted to 5000 as somewhat of an infinitely large version when they switched to feature names. 21:30:09 hmmm 21:30:21 Is this something that would relate to your environment? https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/zfs-upgrade-from-version-28-to-5000.59332/ 21:30:48 well i am worried if i zpool update i wont be able to boot into the old environment or the new one lol. gonna figure it out without an update for now. i have a feeling the updated zfs is in limbo 21:31:25 Makes sense to me. 21:31:52 I have lost sync on your issues. Could you summarize them again? 21:33:12 me?? 21:33:51 its all good, appreciate the help :) i am just trying to update from 12.2 to 12.3 and when it tries to boot after freebsd-update install it gives me a mountroot> prompt 21:34:00 and dont worry, i think ill figure it out at some point 21:34:56 I don't recall hitting that problem when I upgraded from 12.2 to 12.3. I am sure I would have remembered. 21:35:23 Have you updated the boot code? Something like: gpart bootcode -b /boot/pmbr -p /boot/gptzfsboot -i 1 ada0 21:36:11 i did try that just now, yes :) 21:36:32 gonna try updating loader.conf with opensolaris, maybe if i grepped the update i would see something about that 21:36:36 kevans: I am installing the 32-bit libc via bsdinstall, according to this answer: . I hope it does not format my HDD 21:51:55 unfortunately adding opensolaris_load and _enable didnt help =\ sigh 22:12:34 solaris lol grandpa ok 22:14:18 ok so i think the problem might be that im gpt/bios booting and i need to efi boot 22:14:39 https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/why-its-important-to-upgrade-efi-boot-bootx64-efi.79503/ 22:15:32 JFTR but I am still Legacy BIOS booting. 22:16:07 =\ yeah i dont even know if i have EFI. its a pretty old system, but still x64 22:17:35 seems like i could go this route 22:17:37 https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/failed-to-upgrade-12-2-to-13-0.83628/ 22:47:33 fetching 68k files lmao. sheeesh 23:21:44 this cant be real :( "///usr/include/c++/v1/__string exists but is not a directory" 23:43:05 hmmm ok, i am able to boot into 13.3 no problem, but only if i select the boot env from the boot menu? how do i get it to zroot/ROOT/default? 23:44:11 seems like i should do this? https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=273661#c31 23:44:19 separate issue ig 23:58:20 wabkia, Which boot environment works? 23:58:58 The normal plan, which sometimes gets disrupted, is that zroot/ROOT/default is like in a version control system the main trunk of the file system. 23:59:57 Every time freebsd-update changes things it will make a new snapshot and clone a new fs to be a new Boot Environment causing those to be like forks off the main trunk.