00:19:03 unixwitch: i was told turn off things on my bridge'd nic, but can't recall why now: "-tso4 -rxcsum -txcsum" 00:24:18 i had to do something like that on a linux to resolve/work around an issue where the nic (an intel nic) would periodically bounce 00:24:34 networking is dark magic 00:26:26 unixwitch: have you seen https://blog.rlwinm.de/the-correct-way-to-configure-bridges-in-freebsd-for-ipv6-and-ipv4 ? 00:26:27 Title: The correct way to configure bridges in FreeBSD for IPv6 (and IPv4). — blog.rlwinm.de 00:29:01 ... is the output of `pw usershow` intended to be stable (unchanging from version to version)? 00:29:38 Ellenor: if you want stable output, try getent passwd 00:31:03 Also, the easiest way to know if the output is stable is to look at the git history of the file that's generating that output 00:31:32 if it's been stable for >5 years, breaking it would be considered bad form 00:31:35 meena, that doesn't give the user's login class, which VVD needs for some reason. (`pw usershow` does) 00:32:19 what other things can getent query? 00:33:11 ethers, group, hosts, netgroup, networks, protocols, rpc, services, shells, and utmpx, per its man page 00:33:30 I wrote a C program that breaks out the specific field, rather than needing to use `pw usershow` and `awk`, but I suspect that's a capital-W Wrong solution to the problem. 00:35:20 somebody should add libxo output to pw 00:35:42 I'd rather become an alcoholic 00:39:05 yeah, there's definitely more fun things to do with life 00:39:46 I really badly want libxo for ifconfig 00:50:14 but i also don't wanna actually poison my brain with the API 00:50:38 (-: 00:54:28 hmm, maybe it's because I'm the weird one but adding libxo to ifconfig and pw sounds like a fun little side project 00:55:22 it's really mostly cuz other things were more important 00:56:36 Also, i need to look into making pw work without root, so that build/install world can better work without root 01:01:39 meena, how about adding 802.11v support? :> 01:02:27 jbo: you would make people happy by adding libxo support to commands 01:03:41 I wish I would have known about libxo before I wrote my own thing for that a couple of years ago :/ 01:05:59 last time I checked the libxo docs it seemed fairly easy to use. I assume that adding libxo support to ifconfig and pw is mostly an exercise in patience and endurance 01:11:42 Won't that double the size of the code? 01:25:17 meena: regarding that bridge post, why would the bridge interface have an ip? shouldn't a bridge be just like a layer 2 switch? 01:27:55 babz: it's one very thin c library why would it double the size of ifconfig? 01:28:26 nimaje: i don't know, ask crest 01:28:49 meena, without knowing any details I assume that it will inflate the code size considerably 01:29:04 (code size from the memory segments perspective) 01:32:08 I was talking about the source code 01:32:10 hm, I expect libxo support to be mostly replacing printf and similar calls to be replaced by libxo functions plus some call to some init function at the start 01:33:03 But maybe it's just link against this lib an now all the text output is automatically converted to xml :) 01:33:18 wouldn't that be nice 01:33:29 no, you do have to replace the printfs 01:33:54 it's gonna be xo_emit() all over the place :D 01:37:59 ah, I think the use case where you want the bridge to have an ip is when you bridge multiple physical interfaces, so the bridge is your computer and the use case I had in mind was to connect vnet jails to the outside, so the bridge is only internal 01:54:50 yeah, libxo conversion can be a bit dirty unfortunately 01:59:15 kevans, would it actually wrap existing printf() calls? 01:59:27 wrap as in: replace printf() with xo_emit() ? 01:59:34 jbo: yes, but there are edge cases sadly 01:59:41 understandable 02:00:04 the thing I dislike about this sort of thing is that the XML output is basically a "meta output". that was the whole reason why I wrote a very ugly serializer once. 02:00:47 for the most part it works though. the biggest things to pay attention to are when things are flushed (because this can mess up the interaction between xo_emit() and printf output) and that you're actually producing valid data 02:03:17 that sounds like somebody would have a fun time reviewing any potential contribution along those lines :) 02:17:23 unixwitch, ping 02:57:26 ugh I just ran fastboot(1) thinking it was the android command 02:59:27 adventerous 03:25:38 Howdy, I have a failed upgrade to 14.0. My kernel is 14, but userland is 13.2. I have updates pending, which if I install using freebds-update install, I get a missing library when executing lots of things and the system fails to boot. Is there a way to complete the upgrade, or is a reinstall necessary? Also, future me is wondering if a boot environent would help. 03:26:01 +1 for using boot environments 03:26:16 having the kernel on 14.0 while userland is still 13.2 is actually part of the regular procedure 03:26:22 what exactly is failing? 03:26:33 did you follow the update guide that shipped with the release notes? 03:26:48 also, technically you should update the bootloader AFTER installing the new kernel but BEFORE booting into it. 03:27:34 I think I lost shell on one of these boxes during the upgrade. ld-elf.so.1: Shared object "libcrypto.so.30" not found, required by "sshd" is the error. I'll double check the release notes. 03:28:22 pro tip: when updating remote systems always use a tmux session (or similar). this way you can jump back into it after loosing the connection 03:28:42 if the system still boots I'd try to re-install the kernel just to make sure that everything is dandy there 03:28:42 Yes, remembering to use mosh+tmux again :) 03:29:05 Well, I'm booted on it now, but nothing is usable. zfs binary fails to execute. 03:29:17 frebsd-update rollback seems to cure the missing libs. 03:29:39 ld-elf.so.1: Shared object "libcrypto.so.30" not found, required by "zfs" 03:31:01 but... what 03:31:14 Those instructions look like what I've been using for years, so I think the lost shell in the middle is to blame. freebsd-version -kru shows 14.0 14.0 13.2 03:31:15 If it were me I would definitely use the Boot Environment to boot back to the previous which is guarenteed to be consistent. 03:31:41 I dont think I've eve setup boot environments. So unless that's done for me, not sure. 03:31:59 zale23, libcrypto.so.30 would be part of the kernel AFAIK. are you sure that you installed it successfully? 03:32:04 Try: bootctl list 03:32:14 libbe_init("") failed. 03:32:31 is this even a ZFS system? 03:32:32 It's automatically configured if the system is using zfs and freebsd-update 03:32:32 jbo: ah okay, I thought that was part of the sytem. 03:32:39 Definately a zfs system. 03:32:54 but if it's a ZFS system then you should have a boot environment automatically created for you with freebsd-update 03:32:57 but now I go freebsd-update rollback and I can zfs list again. 03:32:58 I think that feature was added in 13.x or something 03:33:17 rwp, bootctl list? isn't that bectl list? 03:33:40 Yeah, the output above is from bectl list 03:33:49 (after the rollback) 03:34:08 So can I completely restart the upgrade to ensure a clean kernel etc? 03:34:18 Jail are working fine :) 03:34:24 is rollback using BEs under the hood? I usually just select the BE in the loader 03:34:52 I'm almost never in front of this system while its booting unless it doesn't. 03:34:53 if this was a source update I would just re-install the kernel. not sure how you do that with freebsd-update 03:36:06 Future me will read https://wiki.freebsd.org/BootEnvironments unless there is a better doc for understanding. 03:36:07 Title: BootEnvironments - FreeBSD Wiki 03:36:59 zale23, there are two ways to use BEs: create a new BE, boot into it and then do work there and stay there if it works out. choose previous BE if it doesn't. The other option is what I usually do: create BE, but stay in the current one. Only use the newly created one if something failed. 03:37:13 AFAIK the latter option is also what freebsd-update does automatically nowdays 03:37:13 I don't mind compiling a kernel, I'm only using generic. If I started the compile for the kernel, would I also need to compile userland? Currently already have a ports tree with poudriere on 14 and 13.2. 03:37:28 I dunno I would personally try to fix the binary udpate 03:37:44 I never had one fail so I don't know how :D 03:37:52 Sounds like I should have a be currently, but don't. Hmm. 03:37:55 if it's definitely a ZFS system I would check whether you have the BE and boot into that. 03:38:10 how do you now that you don't have one if libbe is failing? 03:39:27 Yeah I guess I don't. The rollback fixed the rest of the commands which were failing for libcrypto reasons. Are you thinking that I'd be able to see the boot environments from the loader? 03:39:42 yes, the load shows the available BEs 03:39:51 By default? 03:39:57 yes 03:40:00 it's an option in the menu 03:40:09 where you select multi-user mode, single-user mode etc. 03:40:20 I don't think it was present. I had a rough go geting this thing to boot. Single user -> remount root, rollback but took a bit to learn that's what I needed. 03:42:03 now you make me doubt whether I'm talking shit 03:42:11 Dunno :) 03:42:22 I can reboot, but its like a 10 minute boot before I get to the loader prompt. 03:42:33 Okay maybe like 6 minutes. 03:43:43 Yeah, so no updates pending, fetch -> install -> ld-elf.so failing for libpcap, libcrypto and other reasons. Further fetching fails and rollback required. 03:44:16 if they exist there will be a submenu, but it shouldn't show you anything bectl list doesn't 03:44:40 zale23, you made me boot a machine... it is definitely listing the boot environments if you have more than one. 03:44:44 in the loader menu that is. entry 8. 03:45:30 BEs without being able to specify one in the load would be half as useful :D 03:45:36 Okay, I'll reboot tomorrow and check it out. 03:45:55 Makes sense, that's what I thought BEs were for. 03:46:06 yes 03:46:20 and afaik since 13 freebsd-update auto-creates BEs on install or something 03:46:24 So, the goal is to boot the environment before I started the upgrade, then start the upgrade again from 13.2 -> 14.0, correct. 03:46:27 I don't trust it so I always create one myself explicitly. 03:46:34 yes. 03:46:39 lol 03:46:52 Just bectl create? 03:47:04 yeah. I usually do bectl create 20230102 and move on 03:47:05 And what is that, a zfs snapshot? 03:47:28 /usr/local is still only one copy? 03:47:58 afaik it's not just a snapshot 03:48:05 it's a clone 03:48:13 or maybe it just becomes a clone once you activate it - not sure. 03:48:40 Okay, but a specific filesytem version for the kernel specifically or other filesystem paths also? 03:49:13 it creates a clone unless you specify the create param like default@snapname 03:49:46 yeah that makes sense. if it weren't a clone it wouldn't be all that useful 03:51:10 reason as I understand it: a snapshot is read-only. that wouldn't be particularly fun to boot from :D 03:52:02 man zfsconcepts :) 03:52:02 Thanks for the pointers. 03:53:22 good luck! 04:03:51 you might be intrigued to hear that loader semi-recently learned how to boot from a snapshot, too 04:40:29 jbo, Yes, sorry. 06:12:05 If you have two zfs pools on the same machine, is there a better way to transfer the data from one to the other than using zfs send | zfs recv? it feels like there should be a more efficient mechanism 06:13:47 Shouldn't native file system transfer using send|recv be expected to be the most efficient? 06:14:19 what do I need to install to mount NTFS? 06:17:00 it just feels like there'd be overhead from linearising the data on the pool just to unpack it again, when everything is already in memory in the same kernel 06:17:47 darwin, https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/disks/#using-ntfs 06:17:48 Title: Chapter 20. Storage | FreeBSD Documentation Portal 06:30:36 thanks; I found it 06:31:38 what do I need to do to set 1280 2MB huge pages and enable 1GB huge pages? I've seen a script do this on GNU/Linux but don't know it'll run for FreeBSD (the script is by the xmr-stak-rx programmer) 06:34:35 yeah, that doesn't run on *BSD 06:37:29 i followed a similar page but only could enable mounting NTFS on one of the Lenovo X1 Yoga ThinkPad 20s (FR, UB) (the UB)... the other said fuse doesn't exist even though I installed fusefs-ntfs which got the dependencies 06:38:12 fuse: failed to open fuse device: no such file or directory 06:38:25 directory to mount in is there 06:48:27 okay, I fixed mounting the second NTFS 06:51:40 i'm so shocked fstab uses one SSD/M2/NVMe name and gpart uses something totally different 08:04:32 as a thing, how long should chromium take to start from a HDD? 08:04:42 I think things should be a little quicker 08:05:02 probably not long unless you have many tabs 08:05:15 nah, after a reboot for example 08:05:26 it has to load everything, takes about 15 - 20 seconds :/ 08:05:35 I remember on Linux you had to tell hdparm to do some thing 08:05:44 and it would speed up read writes a lot on HDDs 08:05:52 I do not know about a similar thing in FreeBSD 09:17:09 Hi there :) Anyone maybe has an idea, what the minimal size for autotrim was before OpenZFS (e. g. with FreeBSD 12.4)? Currently it's 32kb (vfs.zfs.trim.extent_bytes_min: 32768) 10:09:57 danel1_: It was the same 32Kib back in that time. 10:12:27 Well, let me check, I might be wrong. 10:13:16 I was searching in the code but wasn't able to find something.. the only stuff i found was in https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/tree/sys/cddl/contrib/opensolaris/uts/common/fs/zfs/trim_map.c?h=releng/12.4#n79 10:13:17 Title: trim_map.c « zfs « fs « common « uts « opensolaris « contrib « cddl « sys - src - FreeBSD source tree 10:13:28 but there is no minimal limit set as far as i can see 10:25:11 danel1_: what is the old sysctl variable name for that? 10:25:52 i haven't found one.. 10:26:20 are you sure it had auto trimming 10:30:18 danel1_: I have a nagging suspicion that autotrim was a new pool property in 13.0 introduced with openzfs 10:30:43 i am - "vfs.zfs.trim.enabled: 1" 10:31:05 it was just controlled by a sysctl knob 10:31:18 also see: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/how-to-enable-autotrim-for-zfs.86091/ 10:31:19 Title: Solved - How to enable autotrim for zfs? | The FreeBSD Forums 10:33:29 https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/sys/cddl/contrib/opensolaris/uts/common/fs/zfs/trim_map.c?h=releng/12.4&id=562a9d583b45e3c60958f5a2005afc15b8b7cc71 10:33:30 Title: src - FreeBSD source tree 10:42:00 danel1_: sorry, I am just unsure it refers to automatic trimming 10:59:48 has anyone managed to get the freebsd 14 installer booting on the pi4 with edk2? the few times i've tried the entire system resets early on in kernel boot 12:04:50 made changes to pucdata.c and compiled a module. When running kldload puc.ko it fails and suggests its already loaded or in kernel. When trying to do a kldunload it complains about finding the file. Do I need to build a custom kernel to incorporate my changes in pucdata.c? 12:06:04 drobban:puc is built into GENERIC 12:07:35 oki doki. thanks for clarifying Remilia. What would the simplest way forward be, if I want to "try" my changes out. 12:07:50 make kernel 12:08:12 Will I need to make a complete build and boot the new kernel, or is there a way to compile a module and try loading it? 12:08:14 you can use INSTKERNNAME to give it a different name 12:08:23 ooh thanks 12:08:30 you cannot unload the kernel 12:08:37 hehehe =) 12:09:30 Naively tought I might me be able to build a "submodule" loading a "different" module doing the almost same thing but just adding my extra to it 12:10:30 drobban: `make -jX kernel INSTKERNNAME=kernel.custompuc` would give you /boot/kernel.custompuc which you can then use in the boot loader 12:10:37 X = number of jobs 12:11:20 that would be a bad idea in my opinion 12:12:07 thanks Remilia 12:12:18 you could also make a custom kernel configuration based on GENERIC with `nodevice puc` and then test modules 12:13:52 drobban: for convenience you can edit /boot/loader.conf to include something like kernels="kernel kernel.old kernel.custompuc", this will let you choose the kernel through the loader menu 12:14:27 kernel="somekernel" would default to kernel named somekernel 12:15:25 or MINIMAL, then there's every chance that it's just built as module 12:16:08 but getting MINIMAL to actually boot might be more fun than some people would actually like to have 12:16:15 ahaha 12:17:53 Remilia: thanks for the heads up on the -j flag =) 12:18:05 -j24 made some difference =D 12:18:44 ooh nice.. done =) 12:20:10 drobban: using parallel jobs sometimes can break the compilation process so if you encounter inexplicable build failures try without but last time this happened to me was like 10 years ago 12:20:32 o it seems to be done without errors 12:29:48 hopefully they will be able to choose the default kernel if stuff breaks 12:33:25 anyone familiar with NIS? 12:33:36 really need my freebsd client auth with NIS 12:33:49 i made linux clients connect but bsd gets rpc failure 12:45:22 second thing, i need to configure my tcp connectivity, i get low tcp transfers over my tun device 12:49:40 # ypwhich -d vlepy.nis.local 10.8.0.1 12:49:40 ypwhich: host is not bound to a ypmaster 12:49:52 # domainname 12:49:53 vlepy.nis.loca 12:50:00 l 12:54:14 i just can't bind my freebsd client to the nis master, the linux client i have works well 12:55:32 hummm. that sucked. copy pasting internet doesnt seem to be 100% solution =D 12:55:33 maybe ypbind ? 12:55:44 will have to read datasheet 12:55:48 * drobban in the future 12:56:05 nimaje i have ypbind running 13:00:36 i have ypbind running but it's not binding 13:02:36 ok 13:02:38 i made that working 13:02:40 :DD 13:02:47 i made ypbind to bind :) 13:02:56 * mane gives himself a cookie 13:07:00 the problem was the nis server works in a remote network that can't make broadcasting work 13:07:15 so i had to specify -S and -m as ypbind settings 13:29:32 now i have to start openvpn right after networking starts 13:32:54 i appreciarte any hints for that 13:34:43 the rc script doesn't work for you? 13:41:38 we would like to run ipv4-only apps on an ipv6-only freebsd (kernel) build 13:43:07 with an ipv6-only network that supports NAT64, obviously 13:53:15 (why would you do an ipv6-only kernel build?) 14:01:56 unixwitch, ping 14:21:49 nimaje it does work but it needs to run earlier, it needs to run before ypbind 14:40:37 so i read around on BE (boot envs) and i wanna start testing it out. but if i check freebsd-update and pkg upgrade, and there's none available, how can i test BE? because i think i have to create a BE, then do an OS or pkg upgrade, then set BE as active, then reboot and select the new BE and see the system as it was before the upgrade 14:43:13 bectl list 14:43:46 polyex: you can make a new be anytime 14:43:55 tried that and it said libbe_init("") failed 14:43:59 lol 14:43:59 its just integrated with the updater 14:44:59 yes, but you can do it yourself 14:45:16 polyex: that seems bad, broken, even 14:45:36 ya and i never typed bectl on this vm before lol. 13.2 p9 14:46:39 want me to try to debug it just tell me what to type 14:53:46 so i made a new VM and i notice when i boot it there's only 7 option in the menu. but shouldn't there be 8 where 8 is the bectl menu? 15:11:53 disconnected 15:17:35 nimaje: why not...? 15:17:53 it's an ipv6-only network, the ipv4 stack is unnecessary 15:18:55 oh after i created a BE then rebooting shows option 8 15:26:03 hey anyone know if RhodiumToad is ok? hasn't been around a lot 15:28:46 2023-12-23 20:20:17 < RhodiumToad> one of the issues for example is that curl updates very of 15:28:49 ten, and rebuilding curl forces a rebuild of rust, and hence all rust-dependent ports 15:28:55 Hasn't been *THAT* long. 15:29:23 fuck ya! glad he's alive and well 15:30:43 what all parts of hier are included in a "boot environment"? 15:31:02 paths 15:34:05 polyex42, generally, I'd say the / prefix. 15:34:39 so not /usr or /root? 15:34:47 / has the tools to get the host booted, on the network, and filesystms mounted. 15:35:04 /usr has base system user utils and daemons. 15:35:13 by / do you mean anything under / that isn't in a subdir of /? 15:35:32 /root is just root's default homedir location. . . really shouldn't be part of your boot chain. 15:36:25 polyex42, basically yes. . . /bin, /sbin, /lib, /libexec, /etc, et al. 15:36:52 you said / as the tools, but those are all subdirs 15:37:10 so a BE is everything under / except /usr /home and /var? 15:37:16 FreeBSD used to default towards pushing you to make /usr, /tmp, & /var their own volumes. 15:37:26 Moving away from that is a big mistake, IMO. 15:37:31 is boot environment not defined somewhere? i didn't see it in man bectl 15:37:56 ya i remember that 15:38:03 now the default is just 1 big partition 15:38:24 CrtxReavr: How recently was that the case? I thought only various bits under /usr tend to not be on / lately. 15:38:26 polyex42, I said the "the / prefix." 15:38:49 and that's bad for all the old reasons that if /tmp fills up then critical dirs don't have room to work? 15:39:03 what's the / prefix? 15:39:16 /, /usr/, /usr/local/ are common prefixes on FreeBSD systems. 15:39:34 they're just dirs tho ya? 15:39:41 polyex42: varies 15:40:02 ??? 15:40:16 prefix is what then if not 1:1 with dirs? 15:40:44 Think of them as an install target. . . most *nix utils require stuff under (s)bin, etc, lib. . . 15:41:23 is /usr/home a common prefix on freebsd systems? 15:41:33 polyex42: not any more 15:41:34 /, /usr, & /usr/local are all the same in that they have bin, sbin, lib, et al. sub-directories. 15:41:46 is /home a common prefix? 15:42:10 /home would not be a prefix. . . it's the parent dir of user homedirs. 15:42:23 is /tmp a prefix? 15:42:26 (Though some users build prefixes inside their homedirs. 15:42:39 Is there a /tmp/bin/ or /tmp/lib? 15:42:51 ok i get it 15:42:57 hmm 15:43:16 polyex42, ever build a program manually from a tarball? 15:43:25 don't think so 15:43:29 hmm 15:44:26 so there's 3 levels of environments, starting with / boot env for core bringup 15:44:30 Well, most *nix software is distributed as a .tar.gz file (less-so in the age of git). 15:44:44 And in that tarball is usually a "configure" script. 15:45:02 and if you run 'configure --help' you'll see a list of build options. 15:45:26 One of the very common options is the PREFIX. 15:45:38 Essentially the parent directory for it to be installed to once built. 15:46:29 ok 15:46:40 and the prefix has a few common subdirs like bin sbin and lib 15:47:19 Yes. 15:47:43 it's like the mac version of how to package apps but inside out. instead of 1 single bundle, it's spread into common dirs 15:47:50 at 3 levels of environment 15:47:54 at 1 of* 15:48:15 so the core OS itself is just programs like any others? 15:48:32 like the very first .../bin? that runs 15:50:14 hello. when do quarterly pkg mirrors get updated? 15:50:26 Quarterly. 15:50:55 right, i mean any specific date? wondering if q1 2024 will be end of march or beggining of jan (next couple of days maybe?) 15:51:21 Look at the dates on the download sites. 15:51:41 so why aren't the exact paths that are included in the boot env documented somewhere? 15:51:58 unixwitch ^ 15:52:52 sddm/ui on one of my laptops is busted and i think newest versions of libs might fix it. wondering if i should wait a few days to get newest quarterly, or if that ship sailed, than just change to latest. i can wait a bit and prefer too, but if it was updated like last week, and this thing i still busted...then might as well change to latest, update and start troubleshooting if it's not in fact a 15:52:52 lib version issue.... 15:52:59 ohh it's on the boot env wiki 15:54:03 can you blow away EVERYTHING excluded from the boot env and still reboot the system into usable state? 15:54:46 Prolly depends on your definition of "usable." 15:55:00 usable enough to be able to rebuild the system however you can 15:55:15 pulling stuff over network, expanding into place 15:55:34 Well, to rebuild the system, you need things under /usr. 15:55:41 ah, found this...i guess i'll try again in a week or two: "ports branched from main at the beginning of every January, April, July, and October" 15:56:00 sshd is in /usr, so if you have to access the system remotely. . . 15:56:51 but according to the wiki, only /usr/home /usr/ports and /usr/src are excluded from BE, so /usr/bin and friends should STILL be there no? 16:01:48 guess you're done? 16:03:22 so why's it a mistake you said to move away from separate volumes? 16:07:20 Well. . . logs and the default location for database software go to /var 16:07:28 Different processes write to /tmp 16:07:50 You don't want those sort of things to fill your / volume. 16:10:12 so why did freebsd core make the decision to squish them? 16:10:43 I think part of that was the promotion of ZFS. 16:10:54 zfs can't be made to have the same behavior? 16:10:59 I mean, a responsible admin will make those separate volumes. 16:11:46 But I guess when they added ZFS support to the installer, they didn't want to also prompt for the creation of separate volumes for /tmp, /var, & /usr. 16:12:03 so really, any root dir that grows over time should be on its own volume right? 16:12:33 Part of that may also be the cattle vs. pets virtualization movement. 16:13:04 Single purpose, disposable VMs. 16:13:23 but you still want them to run right 16:13:55 so how exactly does it protect a system to put /tmp /var and /usr on separate volumes? those fill up and then what, instead of what would happen if they weren't on different volumes? 16:14:32 Well, if /tmp is full, something can still log an error that /tmp is full. 16:14:38 But if theyr'e all the same volume. 16:15:02 Plus, if you have users on the system, do you want users to fill your / (and your /tmp & /var)? 16:16:17 prolly not. that can cause a crash right? 16:16:35 if nothing else the system is basically stuck 16:16:50 Crashes. .. or just for the system to become unusable. 16:17:12 ya i'm back in your camp on separate volumes 16:17:28 can't remember but does installer even let us make those when going the zfs route? 16:32:35 so /tmp can be filled by random processes, /var can be filled with logs, but how can /usr be filled? 16:40:34 pkubaj, hi. scribus conficts with scribus-devel - I can create patch if u want 16:40:56 polyex42: filled mostly with /usr/local content aka pkg. :P 16:41:10 polyex42, /usr/home/ :-o 16:41:39 well it's /home now 16:42:00 so i guess CrtxReavr we should put /home on its own volume too now since it's moved out of /usr? 16:57:28 polyex42: re: your question about boot environments, you got some misleading information 16:58:02 a BE is just / and everything under it that is *not* a filesystem mountpoint otherwise 16:58:53 use `zfs list -o name,canmount,mountpoint` to see what is and is not under / but note that /usr by default is a special exception 16:59:20 it has canmount=off and is therefore included in the BE 17:00:44 essentially the dataset /zroot/usr is empty and used purely as a node for other datasets, including, by default, /usr/home, /usr/ports, /usr/src and /usr/obj 17:01:26 therefore a boot environment includes the entire base system distribution (base.txz) 17:02:07 (and some datasets in /var, like db, for example) 17:04:18 polyex42: also generally see hier(7) and note that FreeBSD itself does not have a concept of 'prefix'; it is an autotools argument that tells where to install binaries/libraries 17:04:27 the default on FreeBSD is /usr/local 17:04:32 VVD: ah, thanks, if you can please do :) 17:05:28 oh wow 17:05:53 polyex42: does it make sense to you now? 17:06:46 BEs are very simple by design, and these canmount=off tricks help keeping it so 17:07:32 also BEs are a ZFS only thing, and ZFS default in the installer is to have multiple datasets inside your pool 17:07:52 it kinda does. kinda overwhelmed 17:08:10 do you agree with having /tmp /var /usr /home in their own separate volumes in case they fill up? 17:08:55 they are already in separate datasets, except /usr, and /home is a symlink to /usr/home 17:09:45 polyex42: please note that there is nothing in /usr in the default layout besides the base system, because everything else is excluded by being a separate dataset 17:10:51 there is no real reason to have multiple zpools 17:12:12 polyex42: oh and also, you can tell ZFS to keep an amount of space reserved for a dataset 17:13:58 polyex42: something like `zfs set reservation=16G zroot/ROOT` though I do not recall if this will affect datasets underneath 17:15:32 oh it will 17:15:48 > That is, if a quota is set on the tank/home dataset, the total amount of disk space used by tank/home and all of its descendents cannot exceed the quota. Similarly, if tank/home is given a reservation, tank/home and all of its descendents draw from that reservation. The amount of disk space used by a dataset and all of its descendents is reported by the used property. 17:16:22 so the command I posted above will guarantee 16 GB of space shared between all BEs 17:17:03 it does not limit space, just means that out of the entire pool size, 16 GB will always be guaranteed to that dataset, and other datasets will be unable to take that space 17:17:21 so we can change it, but the default setup would let /tmp for example fill up the system's storage right? 17:18:17 yes, but the base system does not need space to start and run 17:18:58 it can boot and run off a read only dataset and quite a few systems administrators prefer to have the / read-only 17:19:22 ehh 17:20:29 polyex42: you can also `zfs set quota=16G zroot/tmp` to limit the size of the /tmp dataset 17:21:24 but you're saying there's absolutely no risk of a filled up zfs causing a system to crash or not be able to reboot? 17:21:59 of course there is some risk depending on what you are running 17:23:01 am i wrong that it seems like the default zfs setup isn't as good as it could be if it prompted to set a few quotas on datasets that can grow? 17:23:44 you can set, change, or remove reservations/quotas whenever you want 17:24:04 it is not UFS, you are not cutting a slice into hard-sized partitions 17:25:59 what do you think about having no swap? 17:26:35 also re: /root, it is included in the BE but there are no issues with that because in most cases you have nothing in there except shell configuration files and the like 17:27:14 and you can zfs create zroot/root any time you'd like 17:27:54 polyex42: I prefer having swap because my machines only have 32 GB or less RAM 17:28:46 do you have flash storage? i heard swap is bad to have if you got that 17:28:46 and you can never know ahead whether something you run will fit or not, unless this is a lab-tested, static configuration 17:29:10 I guess if your storage is a USB pen drive, actively swapping would be bad 17:29:24 also bad if your storage is eMMC 17:29:35 but if you are using eMMC you should have most everything read only 17:30:13 you need to keep in mind that FreeBSD does not use swap until there really is no RAM to use 17:30:26 nvme 17:30:29 ssd 17:30:39 why would swap be an issue then? 17:31:03 i thought if swap was enabled and you got flash storage, it'll wear it out 17:31:38 is that another urban legend? 17:32:03 my Windows desktop has 18 GB of swap space and unlike FreeBSD, Windows does use it even when there is enough RAM 17:32:10