00:00:03 it is not a usb dongle 00:00:08 it is an actual card! 00:00:09 amazing 00:01:49 https://www.asus.com/au/networking-iot-servers/adapters/all-series/pce-ax3000/ 00:01:52 Title: PCE-AX3000｜Adapters｜ASUS Australia 00:04:20 Normally you find them on Mini-PCIe or M.2 - I have an AX200 which uses the latter interface. 00:04:50 Intel even make desktop kits where you get a AX200 and a PCIe to M.2 daughterboard. 00:06:22 Mini-PCIe? 00:06:26 you mean, you can get a mini mini? 00:06:59 Mini-PCIe is the interface that was used in (most) laptops before M.2 was introduced. 00:07:02 I bought it probably four years ago 00:07:14 I have M.2 slot, but it has a SSD in it 00:07:20 M.2 added keying so you could connect both PCIe and SATA devices. 00:07:57 U.3 (which I'm hoping will be the next interface), lets you do PCIe, SATA, and SAS over the same connector. 00:08:46 oh well 00:08:53 I cannot get the bluetooth to work 00:09:22 presumably because I do not know how to get firmware to load for pci-e only usb with iwmbtfw 00:09:24 Yea, I don't believe bluetooth works for iwlwifi yet. 00:09:28 iwlwifi(4) 00:09:46 back to a dongle? 00:11:33 At some point I got a handful of USB Ethernet devices that use AX88179, which is a chip that's supported by everything. 00:12:27 It's a direct USB3 to Gigabit Ethernet PHY/MAC so it can do wirespeed (as USB XHCI is packetized anyway). 00:13:11 meena: maybe it was, but i still missed it :D 00:14:30 dunno 00:17:09 There's also a USB-C 3.1 Gen1 to Gigabit Ethernet PHY/MAC from the same company, but I forget the model number. 00:18:11 I have a bluetooth dongle somewhere 00:18:29 not as reliable tho as the pci-e card 00:18:45 That one does CDC-NCM so uses cdce(4). 00:20:14 Oops, USB-C 3.2 Gen1* 00:26:26 Now if ASIX (the company behind them) was _really_ smart, they'd do a USB4PD to SFP+ connector for 10GbaseT. 04:01:24 though I sometimes used FreeBSD UNIX since 1997 (yes, it was actually called UNIX in official documentation then and is still a 'genetic UNIX') I forgot how to see extended partitions in fdisk... I had more experience with DOS & GNU/Linux fdisks... 04:01:56 trying to mount EXT4/Android/BlissOS from some extended partition 04:05:12 p 04:07:17 okay, I should use gpart instead. The drive appears to be nvme0 but 'gpart show nvme0' says 'no such geom' 04:07:59 oh, nvd0 04:08:19 says same for that even though it's what's used in fstab 04:12:19 and mount shows that '/' is currently on that drive 04:34:58 also, how can I check /etc/ttys to make sure (other than me adding more ttys) it's up-to-date? 04:39:49 i was still able to add that to fstab and mount it, but gpart won't show it 04:40:05 it does have a ZFS on one partition which I saw people having problems with 'gpart show' 04:46:21 finally found out it's nda0; so which is correct for fstab: nda0, nvd0, nvme0? Do fstab & gpart really use different defaults? 04:47:16 even with nda0 I still can't show the extended partition 04:56:48 i thought *BSD was still planned/designed/standardized ahead of time, not 'make up as you go along' two instances of the same differently like GNU/Linux does? 05:05:32 Does anyone have a document that explain show to install OpenGrok on FreeBSD? 05:05:38 I can't seem to figure out from google... 05:06:32 happy new year, bitches. 05:27:48 pretty sure...the opengrok port is broken... 06:58:42 I'm a bit surprised my /root/.shrc file isn't executed when I su to root, what am I missing? 07:01:22 are you on 14.0-release? and did you change the relevant line when upgrading? 07:06:15 crb: "su" or "su -"? 07:06:37 su and su -m, it looks like su -l will invoke it 07:07:25 Yeah "-" is same as "-l" 10:26:33 pkubaj, hi! https://www.scribus.net/scribus-1-6-0-released/ 10:26:41 Title: Scribus 1.6.0 Released – Scribus 10:38:53 eee 11:35:30 ansible users? I'm trying to use a dictionary to populate a bunch of configuration files - However, I'm getting "with_dict expects a dict" - I don't see why the supplied parameter is not a dictionary. https://gist.github.com/dlangille/13851af2f8cb6bf028d2ca43e42b5d48 11:35:31 Title: with_dict expects a dict - why is it not a dict? · GitHub 11:51:03 Solution: use loop: "{{ proxy_websites|dict2items }}" or with_dict: "{{ proxy_websites }}" 15:06:56 VVD: thanks, but the port i maintain is scribus-devel, which implies a development version 15:07:04 now i'm wondering what to do here 15:07:28 one thing would be to rename it to just scribus, now that the stable scribus port was removed 15:07:57 another would be to just upgrade to 1.7.0 once it's out 15:14:07 well, scribus-devel seems to be at 1.5.8, so still a reason to update that 15:19:12 pkubaj, you can add scribus with 1.6 and keep scribus-devel for 1.7 branch 15:20:02 anyway we need 1.6 and probably 1.7 in future too 16:42:10 bsd neweb here, how can I grant root access to my new box normal user, while freebsd prevents me from using su - root or su -l root 16:43:39 "In particular, by default only users in the “wheel” group can switch to UID 0 (“root”)." (from man su) 16:44:19 any concrete command to try? 16:45:52 add the user to the wheel group using pw 16:48:53 vigr is also quite nice, if one can control vi 16:51:22 it respects EDITOR according to its man page 16:52:48 oh, cool, didn't know that since vi is my editor :) 16:52:48 pw groupmod wheel -m 16:55:08 so that as root and you will have that user added to the wheel group, which will allow su 17:01:08 $ pw group mod wheel -m "username" >> pw: gr_tmp(): Permission denied 17:01:30 librton: you need to be root to do that (so log out and log in again as root) 17:02:12 pw user add "username" -G wheel >> pw: you must be root 17:02:58 unixwitch: that was the main question, how can I become a root when su - root and su -l root are being denied? 17:03:32 librton: log out, at the "login:" prompt, type "root" then type your root password. once you've run this command, you will be able to use su instead 17:04:06 oh ok 17:05:30 ugh, not able to do so, I'm connected via ssh and I don't have a keyboard at the moment ;( 17:06:12 in that case you are out of luck unfortunately, you can't log in as root over ssh by default, so you need to log in on the console to add your normal user to wheel 17:06:13 ssh not configured to do root access 17:06:43 it used to be you could run /usr/bin/login to do this, but that is not setuid anymore, so it doesn't work 17:10:23 librton: If FreeBSD is installed on a physical hardware or in a VM, access the machine physically. If it's on a VPS, there's a good chance your VPS provider will offer you a web-based console, from where you will be able to login as root. 17:11:03 unixwitch: doesn't that defeat the purpose of the wheel group 17:11:38 Hello71: yeah honestly i don't remember how this worked. i think i only ever used it on systems that didn't restrict su by default anyway... 17:12:49 remiliascarlet: physical box, no physical keyboard 17:14:36 Plug one in then. 17:16:30 Unless that physical box is from the 1990s or earlier, it'll have a USB port. And USB keyboards can be bought for dirt cheap. 17:16:54 presumably a keyboard of some sort was originally attached to install the OS anyway 17:17:09 mildly annoying but well, BSD has worked like this forever, so it's just something you learn :-) 17:17:21 Unless he did so through telepathy. 17:18:55 remiliascarlet: i was thinking maybe PXE but it seems unlikely a newbie would install that way 17:19:46 updating to python 3.11, wish me luck... [main-default] [2024-01-01_17h19m24s] [balancing_pool] Queued: 291 Built: 0 Failed: 0 Skipped: 0 Ignored: 0 Fetched: 0 Tobuild: 291 Time: 00:00:08 17:20:14 I've been using Unix-like systems exclusively since the early 1990s, and I still can't understand how PXE works, left alone a newbie. 17:20:47 i did a lot of PXE installs of Solaris, but they included a whole bunch of scripts that basically set everything up for you automatically. never tried it with freebsd 17:21:54 i did PXE install Windows once, that was actually much easier than i thought it would be. it can even join a domain during install 17:22:35 (i can't even remember why i did that, i think i lost my go-to 'install a new OS' usb stick...) 17:24:44 ... ok bye then 17:35:00 people of freebsd, hello ;/ 17:36:04 what's format of .sh_history that I see some "\12" and similar numbered codes in every history line there? 17:36:33 is there a way to get rid of that nonsense and have just histor without that? 17:36:58 or do I have setup something wrong that I have that in histfile? 17:37:22 alright guys I've figured it out, very simply put used "sudo su -" landed me into root rightaway 17:37:28 hura 17:38:16 next command is how to update upgrade freebsd package manager 17:40:58 librton: sudo isn't installed by default, is that something you added yourself? ... for updating packages, use "pkg update" then "pkg upgrade" 17:41:39 unixwitch: it was a month or so ago, I can recall .. I must have fiddled a little "when I had a keyboard" 17:42:30 (note that pkg upgrade doesn't restart services, so you may run to either reboot or manually restart things after running it) 17:42:37 s/run to/want to 17:47:50 No updates needed to update system to 13.1-RELEASE-p9. 17:48:44 that's the output from freebsd-update, do you have a question about that? 17:53:38 It would be useful background information for the rest of us to know how this system came to be a bare metal remote machine with FreeBSD installed to this point. It seems that someone else installed it for you and set you up on it? And they partially set it up already? 17:54:35 morena: from what I remember it's a custom format which libedit uses to save history to files and read it from them. For plain-text history I think you'll have to use fc -l 17:55:10 First make sure you are in the wheel group so that your account can upgrade privilege to root later. 17:55:42 To upgrade the base system "freebsd-update fetch" followed by "freebsd-update install" then reboot then "freebsd-update install" again (if needed) then "pkg upgrade". 17:57:19 oh, hi pstef. (you commented on my bintrans PR on github) 17:57:20 morena, \012 is octal and the ASCII code for an LF line feed which is the Unix line ending character that is read when one presses Enter. 17:57:53 unixwitch: hi :) 17:58:16 morena, \040 is octal and the ASCII code for an space character. 17:59:08 rwp: ye, but it should be and it is unavoidable in histfile? 17:59:21 I never saw that in any OS before ;/ 17:59:30 it's what libedit does, sorry 17:59:52 okay, so at least nothing wrong at my side 18:00:17 still interesting that freebsd went this path ;/ 18:01:12 Christos did, we only import his library to handle history in /bin/sh 18:01:47 oh okay 18:02:15 you did not check before how other handle it? 18:03:47 the choice to use libedit was before my involvement with FreeBSD 18:07:42 sad, you came late 18:08:31 but at least sh is usable and not too raw ;/ 18:09:13 "Please click on all images of the heaviest animal species" these captchas get more bizarre every day 18:14:52 you can always install another shell from the ports tree 18:15:18 rather not, there will be more headache ;/ 18:15:35 sh feels like it's enough for my simple needs 18:16:09 It's worthwhile to install what's comfortable. 18:16:09 i think the only options here are libreadline (GPL), libedit, and libtesla, and for whatever reason libedit was chosen to be imported. possibly tesla didn't exist at the time 18:16:26 Kinda like spending the money on a good keyboard, 'cept the software is free. 18:16:27 (and obviously libreadline is not an option because of the license) 18:17:12 i actually can't remember if libedit was important, or if it originated in freebsd and was exported after, like libarchive 18:17:16 s/important/imported 18:18:22 will see if something will not start write binary into my home soon ;/ 18:19:18 morena: it's not *that* hard to parse some \escapes really, is it? 18:19:59 and still you have fc -l 18:20:16 no it's not, luckily other software does not write that kind of nonsense into config files na similar ;/ 18:20:43 think of it as a database (of history entries) rather than a config file 18:20:43 ye, there are many solution obviously, it just feels to me wrong to be there 18:20:48 at least it's not sqlite :-) 18:20:57 oh ye ;/ 18:21:16 sqlite would have made it possible to store multiple sh sessions properly 18:21:33 unixwitch please don't encourage him 18:22:10 pstef: but it would break if /home is on a 9p filesystem since sqlite really likes mmap 18:22:42 well, i guess freebsd doesn't have a 9p client anyway. but if it did... 18:28:05 I could only find https://reviews.freebsd.org/D41844 18:28:07 Title: ⚙ D41844 Add an implementation of the 9P filesystem 18:28:49 oh... is this in current? i should investigate this 18:29:47 ok no it's not, i guess it was reviewed but not actually merged yet 18:30:25 this would be really nice for sharing files with bhyve guests though 18:31:11 I believe that's the primary motivation for this diff 18:31:27 dfr's is going to be the most up-to-date version, even 18:37:16 well i subscribed, once it gets merged i will probably be motivated to work out what's broken multimedia/jellyfin so i can move my media server vm to freebsd 18:41:03 hi. why this not works? see paste: https://ctxt.io/2/AADQWwA4FQ 18:41:05 Title: Context – share whatever you see with others in seconds 18:41:55 gorkarabela has joined 18:41:56 Z 18:41:56 zagorkarabela 21:27:47 18:41:57 hi. why this not works? see paste: https://ctxt.io/2/AADQWwA4FQ 18:41:57 button event works but axis event not works. cursor cant move. 18:41:58 have synaptic toucpad and try this on pure X11. 18:41:58 Title: Context – share whatever you see with others in seconds 18:41:58 atkbd keyboards works btw. 18:41:59 generic kernel btw 18:43:17 happy new yer btw 18:44:21 on linux it sends absolute axis events. I am using Xorg server nor wayland 18:54:14 freebsd handbook says Xorg auto{detech/configure} input devices no need for manual xorg.conf 18:56:01 this no config approach use catch-all semantic under /dev/input and seen unrelated devices as input devices say lid swich. So i have to resort manual xorg.conf 19:06:53 Is linuxkpi/mesa-dri mandatory for regular aps(not games) in xorg-server case? I am try to keep away dependency hell So have a look to xorg to see whats the stuation. 19:07:33 say firefox, pcmanfm 19:10:55 meena: do you know the right person to annoy to get my ports PRs landed? 19:14:40 unixwitch, which PRs would that be? 19:14:55 unixwitch, if you have maintainer-approval+ or timeout I can help. 19:15:21 jbo: 275944, 275945, 275947, 275959, 275962. not maintainer-timeout, these are new ports 19:16:14 unixwitch, I can grab them, but I am still under mentorship so I need to get an extra round of approval from my maintainers before I can push the commits - does that suite you or do you need an ASAP solution? 19:16:41 jbo: ASAP is not required at all, it's just (mildly) annoying me that i need to update them by hand after a poudriere run :-) 19:16:54 jbo: as no one else seems to be picking them up i would be very grafeful if you did 19:17:26 morena, To me this feels not like an OS thing but like an sh implementation thing. All of the shells save history in their own format. bash, ksh, zsh, all have unique history formats. sh having a unique history format seems like an sh thing not an OS thing. Just like the other shells. 19:18:51 unixwitch, done 19:19:16 unixwitch, expect little progress until next week starts. stuff movies slowly at the beginning of the year. 19:19:18 jbo: thanks! 19:19:25 yeah no worries 19:19:43 I'll do my part of the work the next few days. probably gonna take two to three days based on my current mentor's load. 19:19:46 morena, I don't know why anyone would care how the sh saves its history format because I think "history" or "fc" should be used to read it anyway. 19:21:19 I guess I have "history" set as an alias to "fc -l". 19:21:36 jbo: note (if you didn't already see) some of these have interdependencies, mainly audio/sublime-music (#275959) depends on the other py-* ports 19:22:40 unixwitch: if i don't have someone like jbo jumping in, i join #bsdports on EFnet, and/or #freebsd-ports and post my (or other #freebsd-bugs ) issues there 19:23:08 unixwitch, I still feel like bugzilla is having non-intuitive ways of labling blocks/depends-on :D 19:23:29 unrelatedly, i think i'm misunderstanding something about ports or poudriere. i set DEFAULT_VERSIONS+=python=3.11, did a poudriere bulk, it rebuilt ~300 packages... but it didn't build a python311 package? 19:23:31 #freebsd-ports +1 19:23:49 jbo: i like the tree view https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/showdependencytree.cgi?id=275959&hide_resolved=1 19:23:52 Title: Dependency tree for Bug 275959 19:23:52 275959 – [NEW PORT] audio/sublime-music: GTK3 desktop client for Subsonic-compatible music streaming servers https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=275959 19:25:47 meena: this reminds me, i mean to ask if #bsdcode is still around, it's been so long i can't remember the key 19:27:49 key? 19:28:07 the key (password) to join the channel 19:28:18 AFAIK, #bsdcode on EFnet has never had a key. 19:28:32 unixwitch: it's around, open, and very dead 19:28:33 rwp: no idea, somehow after decades I first time see some software throwed at my home some hexa or whatever codes into plain text ascii file 19:28:40 hmm, really? maybe i'm misremembering, i'm sure it used to have a key 19:28:50 (this was back in like freebsd 3.x days) 19:29:02 rwp: nothing critical, just first time experienced, so was not sure as online search did not tell much 19:29:20 Maybe in the 3.x days. . . . was prolly the 4.x or 5.x that I first had any reason to be in there. 19:29:49 i remember someone (does anyone remember who?) talking about the super-secret new "HAMMER" platform they were porting the kernel to... which nowadays we call amd64 19:30:43 * CrtxReavr is still amused that AMD beat into to the 64-bit x86 punch (and set the standard to it). 19:30:53 s/into/Intel 19:31:32 i'm conflicted about that, i thought Itanium was nicer for getting rid of the legacy stuff, but it was basically a terrible platform because of how difficult it turned out to be to write the compiler 19:31:38 ARM is strongly predicted to degrade Intel further. 19:31:53 they fixed that for Itanium 2, but by then everyone was using amd64 and it was too late... 19:32:05 Itanic was. . . very problematic and slow. 19:32:43 all else being equal, i think we'd be in a better place today if people had adopted Itanium (2) rather than amd64, but it's pretty obvious why that didn't happen 19:33:11 I had a rack full of prototype Dell IA64 servers. 19:33:51 Well, $job did, but I was the only one interested in playing with them. 19:34:05 We were a huge Dell shop. 19:34:23 i was fairly involved in OpenVMS at the time so i remember all the HP systems that used it 19:34:45 HP basically sustained Itanium for 20 years on life-support because of their investment into it 19:35:03 At that time, the only HP systems I messed with were PA-RISC. 19:35:18 And not in large numbers. 19:35:20 Itanium was supposed to replace PA-RISC and Alpha and be a unified platform for all their systems 19:36:07 We had a CTO who was the project manager for the Alpha at DEC. . . he had some interesting perspective on it. 19:36:23 PA-RISC was fun too though, it had no atomics at all except for a 'set 0/1 at memory address' so all the atomics used an array of pthread_mutexes 19:36:48 Everyone blamed Compaq for Alpha's demise, but DEC knew before they sold it, that Compaq was buying a moldy turd. 19:37:01 you'd index the array by address of the variable and lock it to do an 'atomic' update... 19:37:56 CrtxReavr: everyone hated the HPaq merged but in hindsight, it probably saved HP, since nowadays all they sell is x86 servers 19:38:02 s/merged/merger 19:38:49 Well. . . Compaq sold solid, reliable (perhaps pricy & over-engineered) x86 machines. . . whereas HP sold utter shit. 19:38:53 (... which are just rebranded Compaq servers, they abandoned their own product line) 19:39:23 no clue why my vlepy.com wont respond to icmp 19:39:28 HP could never escape their ~20% DOA rate. 19:39:43 Even on top of the line, HP 9000 PA-RISC servers. 19:39:59 mane: we have no clue either, you probably need to provide more information. like, is that system running a firewall? 19:40:08 pf 19:40:16 show pf.conf and also 'ifconfig -a' 19:40:46 unixwitch https://paste.debian.net/1302705/ 19:40:49 Title: debian Pastezone 19:41:17 unixwitch and this is ifconfig https://paste.debian.net/1302706/ 19:41:20 Title: debian Pastezone 19:41:49 mane: well you don't have a pass in rule for icmp which probably explains it 19:42:09 wasn't Itanium the… spiritual successor of the Alpha? 19:42:39 meena, not sure what would make you think that. 19:42:40 meena: err... maybe? it was a completely different design and had almost nothing in common with Alpha aside from being RISC... 19:43:21 it was the successor in the sense that DEC (after they became HP) switched to Itanium but that was more of a marketing concern 19:43:23 unixwitch ok got it 19:43:51 ah 19:44:08 DEC knew from the start that the Alpha was a design fluke, and that they'd never be able to make it keep pace with Moore's law. 19:44:53 mane: 19:44:54 PING vlepy.com (176.56.237.86): 56 data bytes 19:44:54 64 bytes from 176.56.237.86: icmp_seq=0 ttl=53 time=56.880 ms 19:44:57 works now 19:45:05 yeah i just set a in rule in pf 19:45:18 thanks 19:45:30 i switched to fbsd after 10 years of using debian :DD 19:45:54 mane, also. . . the SMTP(s) server in your MX record doesn't connect - just times out. 19:46:15 ok 19:46:40 morena, By my thinking sh even having a history just feels strange. It never had a history file before. So whatever it has now is new and how it does it has no legacy compatibility issues. 19:47:16 rwp: i assume this was part of the "make /bin/sh not suck" project which lead to changing root's shell to /bin/sh 19:47:43 csh had a history file. ksh had a history file. bash has a history file. zsh has a history file. But sh never had one before. I realize people like it but then since it is new there is no reason for it to be any particular format. 19:48:06 there wasn't a project, a few people felt annoyed with the default shell but at the same time refused to switch to tcsh, me included 19:48:24 * CrtxReavr shrugs. 19:48:43 I set my user to bash and 'sudo -s' lets me keep my shell, so. . . win win. 19:48:48 unixwitch, My problem with "make sh not suck" is that it is still not as good as other shells by a lot so it's going to be too little too late for me regardless of what is there. 19:48:50 so trasz did some prompt stuff, bapt enabled history, I wrote program name completion, etc. 19:48:53 pstef: 'project' might be the wrong word, but weren't there a bunch of commits made in order to justify the change? 19:49:42 bapt also made other changes beside history, like emacs bindings 19:49:49 rwp: sure but how often do you actually log in as root? i'm just happy that 2>&1 works and i don't have to (re)learn csh which i hate whenever i log in as root 19:49:52 eww 19:50:24 I thought all emacs users were required to use zsh and OhMyZsh. 19:50:30 Re sh, more importantly vi-bindings! 19:50:33 The trifecta. . 19:50:52 it's not about emacs users, for example I'm not one 19:50:59 * meena is happy with (t)csh as root's shell 19:51:06 I am always doing things so probably I log in as root more often than most people. I set up toor for my own use leaving root defaulting to only things in base. 19:51:27 i am always doing things but i use sudo -s... 19:51:33 but ctrl+left and ctrl+right jumping between words is pretty much the standard everywhere except places that want to be original 19:52:00 CrtxReavr, vim + zsh user here :D 19:52:04 wait, aren't vi and emacs bindings required by posix for /bin/sh? 19:52:27 /bin/sh is not POSIX 19:52:29 nimaje, what about OhMyZsh? 19:52:40 See: local, pipefail 19:52:42 parv, sure it is. 19:52:43 * unixwitch hopes this change will be followed by removing /bin/csh from source :-D 19:53:01 CrtxReavr: why would I look at that shit? 19:53:08 1975 called. They want their shell back. 19:53:20 (i mean... everyone uses tcsh nowadays anyway right? so there's no reason to ship /bin/csh) 19:53:32 csh was the ultimate paper printing terminal and mostly became obsolete when the CRT terminal arrived. 19:53:42 unixwitch: it's been moved to their own PkgBase package, so if you're using PkgBase you can just not install it 19:53:54 For the last twenty years csh has been a flavor of tcsh source. 19:54:04 meena: i look forward to stable pkgbase appearing in FreeBSD 24.1 19:54:08 138847 -r-xr-xr-x 2 root wheel 425456 Aug 2 21:12 /bin/csh 19:54:10 138847 -r-xr-xr-x 2 root wheel 425456 Aug 2 21:12 /bin/tcsh 19:54:24 unixwitch, ;-> 19:54:26 There is no separate standalone csh that is not also tcsh. 19:54:33 unixwitch: I'm hoping for 16 or 19 19:54:59 They may behave slightly differently, depending on which name they're invoked as. 19:55:06 Not sure I would notice though. 19:55:10 nah 19:55:17 There are still some very large tech companies (I am looking at you Intel) where the lab still is mostly csh throughout. It's crazy. 19:55:22 tbh i don't even want pkgbase because i am always doing 'cd /src/main/usr.bin/foo; make install' and i guess pkg doesn't like that 19:55:22 that's not been the case for years now 19:56:02 AT&T banned all bash and bourne shell usage, because of one quickly patched bug. 19:56:24 you can't use csh for scripting tho… 19:56:37 you can you just shouldn't 19:56:39 You _can_ use csh for scripting, but you never should. 19:56:40 Well, you can. . . if you like really shitty scripts. 19:56:55 * rwp laughs that everyone has the same idea on that! 19:56:59 you can't even have functions 19:57:00 :D 19:57:38 I just killed three ancient csh scripts rewriting them in portable shell for a client just two weeks ago! They are still out there. Hiding in the weeds. 19:58:09 i have no sympathy for csh users, i learnt Unix in the 90s and even then everyone said not to use csh 19:58:09 rwp++ 19:58:11 the client? 19:58:37 One of my clients with a long legacy installation. 19:59:07 I wanted to say that I am an emacs user and don't use zsh nor do I even like it, zsh is just too weird for me. But it is okay with me if other people like it. Just not me. 19:59:27 at least zsh is "POSIX compatible" 19:59:30 when we only had /bin/sh or zsh, zsh was a shit. i understand people using bash nowadays though, it's improved a lot 19:59:30 csh is just no. 19:59:39 s/a shit/the shit/ 20:00:07 to be honest I never heard somebody use csh 20:00:13 zsh was like, it had all of csh's feature, but it didn't suck 20:00:21 so why would you use csh instead of zsh? 20:00:41 I use bash but honestly I don't like a lot of things about bash and I never write bash scripts, I write portable shell scripts, but I haven't found a shell I like better for the command line. I dream of eventually writing my own so it would be the way I like things to be. 20:00:41 NeXT even made it the default shell, iirc 20:00:42 the FreeBSD guide used tcsh syntax in a few places, but sh syntax in all others 20:01:26 History recall of multi-line command is atrocious in bash 4.x compared to zsh, where each line gets its own history instead of one-complete block 20:01:40 When /bin/sh was the original shell it made sense to use csh for root's shell so everything was in base. 20:01:49 i've been trying shells/fish recently which i have to say i'm actually quite enjoying so far 20:01:53 ... at least in vi-mode. 20:02:17 rwp: it really didn't. System V kept root's shell as /bin/sh. BSD only made it /bin/csh because they were precious about /bin/csh being a special 'better' BSD thing 20:02:19 ... if not for that, I would still be using bash instead of zsh 20:02:31 I actually use the multi-line conversion to single line behavior a few times to turn a multi-line script into a command line one-liner. (shrug) 20:03:22 unixwitch, I meant in FreeBSD. Right. I spent years on HP-UX at work and it is System V and always had root's shell either /bin/sh or later /bin/ksh 20:04:37 just until recently, FreeBSD sh would print an actual tab when you hit the tab key, and not print a newline when you hit ^D 20:04:43 yeah ksh was alright 20:04:52 did freebsd ever get any ksh in base? 20:04:53 I blame Sun for some badness though because their /bin/sh was the old Bourne shell and the POSIX shell the put in /usr/xpg4/bin/sh which is the reason #!/bin/sh is not written into the standards and that is going to haunt us forever when it comes to portability. 20:05:05 guess not fish: Unknown command: ksh 20:05:16 20:00, so why would you use csh instead of zsh? -> I always grown up with the warrent that it did not matter if it was (t)csh or sh but the indeed as long as root always was a base system shell 20:05:42 so you could login no matter what 20:06:01 toor from the older years was always bound to /bin/sh for that very reason I believe 20:06:02 unixwitch: i love fish. mostly because I'm dyslexic* and also, because sh derivates are painfully inconsistent, and my brain can't keep remembering all that garbage 20:06:13 With other systems going through UsrMerge right now I am seeing all kinds of crazy things such as "#!/usr/bin/sh" (gack!) and now the crazy "#!/usr/bin/env sh" is feeling less crazy now. 20:06:17 daemon: yeah i agree with that. i meant more for a user shell. if you login in as root and have to type 'zsh' to get a nice shell that's fine 20:06:45 daemon: i just don't see why anyone would keep using (t)csh after zsh existed. 20:07:04 I just discovered that current sh only stores 100 items in its command history by default, you have to specifically set HISTSIZE. And that our new history alias should have been 'fc -l 0' 20:07:06 zsh for tmux for the god combo but yeah 20:07:11 meena, Does fish not deviate how it works wrt other shells? 20:07:13 s/for/plus/ 20:07:34 parv: it's not a POSIX-compliant /bin/sh if that's what you mean. but it doesn't claim to be 20:07:57 parv: posix doesn't disallow extensions, but yes our sh isn't posix (see '-c' bug 274650), sometimes it's better to break portability than have users produce broken code by accident (well, still easy in sh, just use zsh) 20:07:58 274650 – sh does not accept -- after -c https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=274650 20:08:33 https://fishshell.com/ 20:08:34 Title: fish shell 20:08:38 I still quite like tcsh's default history completuin 20:08:46 completion* 20:08:53 "Finally, a command line shell for the 90s" 20:08:55 the only thing i don't like about fish is i can't work out what the equivalent to !* is 20:09:02 this is probably buried in the docs somewhere... 20:09:14 what is !* 20:09:42 $ badecho foo bad baz 20:09:42 zsh: command not found: badecho 20:09:42 $ echo !* 20:09:42 echo foo bad baz 20:09:42 foo bad baz 20:10:12 it's the arguments from the previous history entry without the command itself 20:11:05 ah, no idea 20:11:07 it also doesn't seem to implement ^foo^bar history substitution but i find i don't use that very much nowdays so i can live with it 20:11:20 could easily hack a quick command in perl to replace it 20:11:44 daemon: i am mildly disturbed about this suggestion 20:12:02 its what it was made for ;) 20:12:19 i was so happy when perl was removed from base 20:12:27 no happy memories about that at all 20:12:32 if you have zsh, tmux, nginx etc; you very likely have it anyway 20:12:54 i do have it but i dream of one day submitting enough patches that i don't 20:13:07 openssl reuires it to build still ;) 20:14:07 that isn't much of a recommendation :-D 20:14:18 does libressl need perl? 20:14:40 good question not actually sure lets see 20:14:41 ah, shit, why would xorg be removed if I removed perl? even xorg-server and xorg-drivers, not just the metapackage 20:14:58 meena: omg fish doesn't have an irc channel it has a matrix channel. this is so terrible 20:14:59 perl is involved in a lot of build or make files 20:15:25 could be worse; could be slack 20:15:29 nimaje: turns out perl is fricking everywhere https://bsd.to/MNaR 20:15:30 Title: dpaste/MNaR (Plain Code) 20:15:31 like a virus 20:15:57 https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/224:_Lisp 20:15:57 ; 20:15:57 Title: 224: Lisp - explain xkcd 20:15:59 ;) 20:16:27 wait, why do i even have xf86-video-scfb installed? 20:16:31 219 packages that would get removed for me 20:16:49 https://www.freshports.org/security/libressl/ no references to perl directly 20:16:50 Title: FreshPorts -- security/libressl: Free version of the SSL/TLS protocol forked from OpenSSL 20:17:02 There had been efforts to replace Perl with awk+sed in The Ports. Someone(s) offended enough just need to extend that to other projects. 20:17:18 unixwitch: because of xorg metapackage? 20:17:34