00:37:28 <polyex> should every binary generate log messages to syslog?
00:46:32 <rtprio> not always; perhaps if you have a good way to sift logs
00:47:02 <polyex> well 'ls' doesn't generate log messages i don't think? and if not, why not it, but yes for something else?
00:55:34 <cybercrypto> polyex: I tend to believe that it is not mandatory to every binary generate syslog messages. My view is like "good binaries" would be designed to offer choice for debugging and syslog messages.
00:56:24 <polyex> so not required but any proper binary will generate log messages, debugging output, some combo?
00:59:15 <rwp> For example Apache & Nginx logs to its own log file which is not the system log.
01:00:25 <rwp> Programs which don't generate enough log data to justify their own logging can piggyback on the system log.  It's easy.  But others that do generate a lot of data and do their logging.
01:00:42 <rwp> It's a judgement call and different program developers will decide different ways for different programs.
01:00:50 <cybercrypto> polyex: quite, but not exactly what I meant. If you think about ping.c - it is a very well written /design binary. It is not integrated to syslog - This is due to the nature of the program, since it is already "showing logs you want in the tty". Not meant to be in baground I guess.
01:01:16 <polyex> so some bins log to syslog, some to a file, some not at all. some data, some data and errors, others errors only. how do we now what the right thing to do is?
01:01:26 <rwp> ping and ls are mostly command line interactive programs.  There is no need for logging for them since the output goes straight to the user already.
01:01:49 <rwp> But daemons which are running in the background are not in front of a user.  Their output would not go anywhere.
01:02:23 <polyex> wow good call
01:02:50 <polyex> so any time the bin is interactive don't log events, output them directly to user?
01:03:24 <rwp> Generally, yes.  The user will see the error/info/debug and know what to do.  But the devil is in the details.  What are we actually talking about here?
01:03:25 <cybercrypto> rwp: correct, thats my said above. it is not mandatory, and each solution will require a particupar approach, to suit better.
01:04:33 <polyex> then on top of that, users can set the log level to log less or more detail
01:05:46 <cybercrypto> polyex: did you read the question from rwp? What is it that you want to achieve, and why you are asking about binary/syslog in general?
01:05:57 <polyex> in general
01:06:28 <polyex> is all this covered in some kinda freebsd application programmer's guide?
01:06:40 <polyex> like 'this is what a quality bin is'
01:08:07 <rwp> I am not aware of a FreeBSD project Policy document on this but we do have the body of all of the programs that are in it.  We point to examples and go this was good.
01:10:35 <cybercrypto> polyex: I will not talk about "this is good / this is not" type of software - you need to read/learn and collect good practices around. With that said: good think freebsd documentation is quite impressive, if you interested: https://docs.freebsd.org/en//books/developers-handbook/
01:10:36 <VimDiesel> Title: FreeBSD Developers' Handbook | FreeBSD Documentation Portal
06:04:57 <rtyler> o/ I am wondering how one might go about attaching a disk to an running bhyve VM? I'm trying to test some software on the host which operates off of devices being attached/detached
07:08:32 <nerozero> hi there
07:09:52 <nerozero> I have a question regarding production migration from bsd13.2 -> bsd14.0.  Should I start thinking about it now or it is too early ?
07:10:23 <zyxer> Well, if I am not mistaken 14.0 is current, not stable.
07:11:04 <zyxer> But I am far from a freebsd expert
07:11:20 <nerozero> https://www.freebsd.org/releases/14.0R/announce/
07:11:21 <VimDiesel> Title: FreeBSD 14.0-RELEASE Announcement | The FreeBSD Project
07:11:37 <nerozero> Date: November 20, 2023
07:11:55 <nerozero> zyxer, the same here
07:12:12 <zyxer> ??
07:12:42 <nerozero> not an expert ...
07:13:18 <parv> nerozero, Perhaps wait for 14.1? In any case 14 branch is now "stable"; 15 is current
07:13:44 <nerozero> parv, reasonable suggestion .. thanks
07:15:24 <nerozero> guys, I had issues with bhyve on bsd13, it was an issue with passing USB device to a guest machine
07:15:58 <nerozero> it worked for a while and randomly crashed to kernel panic the host
07:16:33 <nerozero> has anyone any experience passing usb device to a guest machine ?
08:00:03 <AumShivaya> Quick and very easy question: is there a setup that I can select to get my usb mac keyboard to work with (fn) multimedia keys?
08:00:20 <meena> rtyler: I'm not sure that's possible right now
08:03:09 <AumShivaya> problem seems to be the function key isn't working as a modifier
08:03:24 <AumShivaya> just gives a tilde ~
08:28:42 * _xor really should figure out why he's not able to use his keyboard when trying to boot into single-user mode
08:29:10 <_xor> Always gets stuck at the part where it asks for the path to the shell (defaults to /bin/sh).
08:29:32 <_xor> I've tried swapping with multiple different keyboards, and none of them work.
08:29:55 <Remilia> that sounds familiar but familiar from 2005 or so
08:30:08 <Remilia> so I do not recall what the issue was
08:30:18 <_xor> End up having to boot mfsBSD from my USB media into a live CD and then using that to do what I was originally going to do in single-user mode (e.g. fix the system).
08:30:32 <_xor> Had to do it a bit earlier tonight when upgrading to 14.x from 13.x on this system.
08:31:13 <_xor> One of the kernel modules wasn't compiled for the new version AND it was missing another kernel module dependency.
08:32:15 <AumShivaya> ok, your keyboard question sounds more urgent
08:32:59 <Remilia> AumShivaya: special keys like Fn are implemented differently on different keyboards
08:33:08 <_0pr_> Hi, anyone has successfully put desktop computer running 13.2 to resume after sleep? Tried zzz and acpiconf -s3/-s4, after powering up again nothing's showing and have to do a complete shutdown. My computer's got an NVIDIA card and I have installed the drivers correctly, don't know if the card is causing the issue...
08:33:22 <_xor> Not really, it's only when trying to boot into single-user mode. The kernel module problem was far bigger because I couldn't boot back into my system. It was throwing a fault and rebooting.
08:34:04 <_xor> Remilia: ...but would that result in none of the keys working?
08:34:05 <Remilia> AumShivaya: so it might be that your Mac keyboard requires protocol mode switching
08:34:13 <AumShivaya> ooh what is that?
08:34:18 <_xor> oh
08:34:33 <Remilia> some proprietary command to the keyboard that tells it to switch from PC mode to Mac mode
08:34:45 <Remilia> who knows
08:35:01 <AumShivaya> I don't
08:35:04 <AumShivaya> lol
08:35:08 <Remilia> there were 'gaming keyboards' like that where when you install Windows drivers they would switch modes
08:36:13 <_xor> AumShivaya: I had to disable ukbd in my kernel to use my keyboard, including multimedia keys.
08:36:13 <AumShivaya> yeah, my keyboard is just an old usb mac keyboard (white)
08:36:21 <AumShivaya> I think around 2012
08:36:34 <AumShivaya> oh
08:36:37 <_xor> https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
08:36:38 <VimDiesel> Title: ZSA Moonlander: Next-gen Ergonomics | zsa.io
08:36:40 <_xor> That's the keyboard I use.
08:36:53 <AumShivaya> interesting looking
08:37:13 <_xor> To use it fully under FreeBSD, I had to add "nodevice ukbd" after "include GENERIC" in my kernel config for this machine.
08:37:44 <AumShivaya> I am not quite ready to compile my own
08:38:01 <AumShivaya> I haven't done that for years
08:38:01 <Remilia> _xor: you could use device hints
08:38:25 <_xor> It's a multi-layer keyboard. I can switch between different layouts using the two red buttons you see in the picture. One layout is for my special keys (e.g. multimedia, shortcuts, etc). Another layout is for emacs. I'm going to add another layout for nvim.
08:38:43 <Remilia> echo 'hint.ukbd.0.disable="1"' >> /boot/loader.conf
08:38:48 <_xor> Remilia: Probably, but I was tired at that point after having to deal with it for a while. Once i got it working, I was done.
08:39:16 <AumShivaya> could I try that hint?
08:39:43 <Remilia> that moonlander thing looks less impressive for ergonomics than what my friend got
08:40:33 <_xor> I was surprised by it, but it did take me a while to get used to it. It's pretty nice though and I like a lot now. I'm going to get an Apple Magic Trackpad 2 soon and put that in the middle.
08:41:13 <_xor> What did your friend get? It was either this or Ultimate Hackers Keyboard for me, but UHK had like a 3-4 month wait time to get and it was also $100 more expensive, so I said screw it, Moonlander it is.
08:41:19 <_0pr_> UHK is good too. Switched from Vortex and can never go back anymore.
08:41:29 <_0pr_> haha
08:41:49 <Remilia> _xor, https://www.moergo.com/ this terror
08:41:51 <VimDiesel> Title: MoErgo Glove80 Wireless Split Ergonomic Keyboard
08:42:19 <_xor> What in ${DIETY}'s name?
08:42:25 <Remilia> diet
08:43:18 <_xor> lol
08:43:20 <_xor> *Deity
08:43:39 <Remilia> the photos are funny though because they show this ergo keyboard and then next to it is a really flat mouse
08:43:44 <Remilia> get a trackball, woman
08:44:05 <Remilia> or man in the first pics
08:44:08 <nerozero> IMHO keyboard should not cost >100$, while UHK is ~350EUR
08:44:22 <_0pr_> :D
08:44:25 <Remilia> my Filco cost me 200 euro w/shipping etc.
08:44:41 <_0pr_> I got two... First one purchased the wrong switch...
08:44:49 <Remilia> in the time since I have bought it, I would have destroyed at least 25 regular 20-euro keyboards
08:44:50 <_xor> Monitor and keyboard are two things that I think are worth the premium since you should be able to use them for a long time.
08:45:00 <nerozero> ...still love my logitech washable keyboard
08:45:13 <nerozero> bought it ~ 7y ago..
08:45:14 <_xor> I'm going to buy the new Samsung G9 to replace my current monitors.
08:45:25 <_xor> Just hope that I don't run into issues on FreeBSD for it.
08:45:37 <nerozero> Logitech K310
08:45:42 <Remilia> admittedly I am already on the 3rd keycap set but the reason for buying the first was user error
08:45:51 <_xor> The Apple Magic Trackpad 2 + Samsung G9, both I need to look into further with regards to FreeBSD support.
08:46:21 <Remilia> keyboard was bought in the autumn of 2012 iirc
08:46:27 <Remilia> trackball sometime in 2015?
08:46:30 <nerozero> any suggestion for programming / vim, mechanical keyboard < 100$ ?
08:46:32 <Remilia> been using these since
08:46:56 <nerozero> Remilia, logitech M757 - trackball
08:47:00 <Remilia> eww
08:47:00 <nerozero> awesome
08:47:02 <_xor> I'm looking forward to this monster...
08:47:05 <_xor> https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/monitors/gaming/57-odyssey-neo-g9-dual-4k-uhd-quantum-mini-led-240hz-1ms-hdr-1000-curved-gaming-monitor-ls57cg952nnxza/
08:47:06 <VimDiesel> Title: 57" Odyssey Neo G9 Dual 4K UHD Quantum Mini-LED 240Hz 1ms(GtG) HDR 1000 Curved Gaming Monitor | Samsung US
08:47:14 <Remilia> nerozero: that is not a trackball
08:47:18 <Remilia> that is a mouse wannabe
08:47:27 <nerozero> :
08:47:29 <nerozero> :)
08:47:50 <Remilia> you control a proper trackball with your index and middle fingers
08:48:13 <Remilia> thumb-controlled is extremely subpar because of human anatomy
08:48:29 <nerozero> it depends on your preference, I have used this kind of logitech mouse since 2004
08:48:34 <_xor> Proper multi-touch pad > trackball. Sorry, that's just the way it is. I don't make the rules, I just enjoy them.
08:48:37 <Remilia> also gives you less momentum from inertial movement
08:48:45 <nerozero> almost 20y already
08:49:00 <nerozero> for gaming as well.
08:49:19 <Remilia> _xor: I have never got into trackpads and I dislike regular mice because they just do not give me the speed and precision I want
08:49:51 <Remilia> a real trackball with a nice huge ball? you can spin it and let it rip through your entire monitor set-up in a second
08:49:54 <Remilia> and stop when you need to
08:50:30 <nerozero> Remilia, yem, M757 can do that
08:50:43 <Remilia> nerozero: it also is for thumb so no, thanks
08:50:52 <Remilia> I will stick with Expert Mouse
08:50:57 <_xor> I have a Logitech G500 for my mouse that I bought a few years ago. If I need more speed it has quick-tap buttons to change the sensitivity, though I can agree with you on being able to fling a trackball. Trackpads generally don't get enough precision, though the Apple one gets closer than all of the other ones.
08:51:01 <nerozero> Remilia, it is good for gaming
08:51:34 <Remilia> _xor: trackball also stays in place which is one of the biggest advantages
08:51:35 <nerozero> hand is resting in the same place and easy to use a spin 360
08:51:48 <_xor> Yup, that's true.
08:52:01 <nerozero> anyway, does anyone has any experience for K845 Logitech keyboard ?
08:52:21 <nerozero> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089YFHYYS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&th=1
08:52:22 <VimDiesel> Title: Amazon.com: Logitech K845 Mechanical Illuminated Keyboard, Strong Adjustable Tilt Legs, Full Size, Aluminum Top Case, 104 Keys, USB Corded, Windows (TTC Brown Switches) : Electronics
08:53:05 <_xor> I'm a vim user, so anything that lets my fingers stay on home row is a plus to me.  I'm going to put the trackpad between these two keyboard halves and hopefully be able to utilize that 80% of the time over my mouse.
08:53:18 * nerozero doesn't like split keyboards
08:53:51 <Remilia> _xor: that Samsung monitor looks scary and unfit for preprint/layout/CAD work
08:54:09 <_xor> Why?
08:54:12 <_0pr_> Remilia: what trackball are you using?
08:54:14 <nerozero> Never get used to IBM track thing in the middle of the keyboard
08:54:22 <Remilia> _0pr_, [08:50:52] <Remilia> I will stick with Expert Mouse
08:54:46 <Remilia> _xor, curved and the specs say nothing about calibration
08:55:11 <Remilia> my current display is 32UN88A-W since I wanted a relatively cheap 4K haha
08:55:14 <_xor> Main reason I'm considering it is because I have 4 monitors on this system currently. I use a tiling window manager and switching between all of these workspaces is a pain. The big monitor should help alleviate that quite a bit.
08:55:33 <nerozero> mine : https://www.amazon.com/Ergo-M575-Wireless-Trackball-Black/dp/B08TLYK78K
08:55:34 <VimDiesel> Title: Amazon.com: Logitech Ergo M575 Wireless Trackball Mouse - Easy Thumb Control, Precision and Smooth Tracking, Ergonomic Comfort Design, for Windows, PC and Mac with Bluetooth and USB Capabilities (Black) : Electronics
08:55:35 <Remilia> I guess
08:56:03 <_0pr_> Remilia: thanks man, will have a look.
08:56:04 <Remilia> _xor: I have a 4K in 100% DPI scale and so far it gives me enough space
08:56:05 <_xor> Also this one doesn't sacrifice as much height as other monitors proportional to its size, which is what sold me on it.
08:56:35 <Remilia> _0pr_: it does require getting used to if you never used SGI and Sun trackballs from the 80s-90s
08:56:52 <_xor> Which CAD package do you use?
08:57:06 <Remilia> Altium and AutoCAD
08:57:28 <_xor> Oh, you do PCB layouts?
08:57:29 <_0pr_> Remilia: Definitely. just wonder how to move the cursor when selecting. I'll dig up some videos to check it out.
08:57:37 <Remilia> aside from that, I use 3dsmax and Davinci Resolve (and occasionally Premiere Pro etc.)
08:57:38 <nerozero> Remilia, Electronics developer ?
08:57:39 * _xor is doing one in KiCad for his ESP32
08:57:49 * nerozero kicad/freecad
08:57:57 <_xor> DaVinci Resolve is pretty awesome.
08:58:01 <_xor> I use Blender mostly these days.
08:58:09 <_xor> For sculpting/modeling/animating I mean.
08:58:13 <Remilia> it is hard to get used to Resolve after PPro
08:58:37 <_xor> Which reminds me, I need to resume the Blender 4.x build for FreeBSD. The one in ports is getting long in the tooth.
08:58:38 <Remilia> 3dsmax is somewhat similar to APA/Maya so...
08:58:57 <Remilia> _xor, speaking of monitors check this out https://www.lg.com/uk/monitors/ergo-monitors/28mq780-b/
08:59:01 <VimDiesel> Title: LG DualUp 27.6" Ergo Stand Monitor | 28MQ780-B | LG UK
08:59:02 <_xor> I started with 3dsmax when it was 3D Studio heh, haven't used it in years and years.
08:59:29 <_xor> I mucked around with Lightwave and Maya, but I was a coder, not an artist.
08:59:38 <Remilia> 3D Studio on DOS was :|
08:59:42 <_xor> *am a coder (use the term very loosely)
08:59:42 <Remilia> compared to APA
09:00:26 <_xor> Remilia: Who do you use to print one-off/small-run PCBs?
09:00:48 <Remilia> uhh I just ask my uncle haha
09:00:56 <_xor> I see :|
09:01:17 <Remilia> it is not fast since they have their own prototyping but
09:03:10 * _xor is a newbie to PCB layouts and has a short-list of places that will print one-off boards
09:03:24 <_xor> It's cheaper than I was expecting.
09:44:38 <AumShivaya> nope keyboard is still not working with FN multimedia keys
09:57:20 <Remilia> AumShivaya: https://deskthority.net/wiki/USB#Human_Interface_Device
09:57:21 <VimDiesel> Title: USB - Deskthority wiki
10:02:37 <parv> nerozero, Re K845: I got the one with TTC Red linear keys (at work). Note that backlight|LED for two of the keys -- Home, Page Up -- that I hit often, & perhaps harder, do not turn on
10:03:45 <nerozero> parv, thanks for reply
10:04:15 <parv> nerozero, Sorry I missed there "... anymore"
10:05:59 <nerozero> about the led-s this is known issue fot this keyboard, the leds are dying qickly ,, i guess - too much current is supplied
10:06:37 <nerozero> This is not a major issue to me
10:07:25 <nerozero> I would like to buy "Cherry Blue" keys, which I heard is more "softer" ish ... but I never had mechanical keyboard so.. thanks for any advice
10:14:02 <parv> nerozero, If possible consider getting the keyboard such that key switches can be replaced with as of ease as you would care (one is pop off, pop on; other is soldering)
10:14:45 <nerozero> parv, any suggestion ?
10:22:49 <parv> nerozero, I do not have any personal experience. Look for "hot-swappable keyboard" for no-solder option. I have read about "Keychron". I had found keyboards without the back light had been cheaper. I have not bought any due to potential pain of having to return, very possibly at my own expense.
10:23:57 <nerozero> parv, thanks for sharing experience !
10:24:40 <parv> nerozero, See https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10/i-used-a-28-mechanical-keyboard-for-a-month-maybe-you-should-too/ ; https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/03/the-ars-technica-guide-to-mechanical-keyboards/
10:24:42 <VimDiesel> Title: I used a $28 mechanical keyboard for a month—maybe you should, too | Ars Technica
10:25:55 <nerozero> thank you so much
10:29:03 <parv> nerozero, Could you borrow from someone(s) keyboard(s) with different types of switches to try before buying?
10:32:51 <parv> (My experience with work-paid *backlit* Logitech K845 keyboard did not pan out for me to buy one of my own)
10:39:37 <bz> im getting this error "Anchor 'blacklistd' not found."
10:39:42 <bz> when i start the blacklistd service
10:39:59 <bz> even though i have the blacklistd anchor in pf.conf
10:40:08 <Remilia> [10:07:26] <nerozero> I would like to buy "Cherry Blue" keys <- do you live alone / work in a separate room from other people?
10:40:26 <Remilia> because if not, I really do not recommend that
10:47:47 <vkarlsen> Remilia: They feel so good though
10:48:21 <Remilia> in my opinion there is not much difference between blue and brown switches when it comes to tactile feeling
10:49:08 <vkarlsen> I haven't tried brown. I have blue and red, and prefer the blue.
10:49:18 <Remilia> well, Browns are 5g lighter for actuation
10:50:31 <vkarlsen> 5g? I don't know if I would notice that difference
11:01:35 <Remilia> vkarlsen: the noise though
11:01:44 <Remilia> MX Brown are a lot quieter
11:02:02 <Remilia> though of course far from Topre stuff
11:02:41 * Remilia has an NG01BS at the office
14:05:37 * vkarlsen bought a couple Das Keyboards several years ago
14:10:12 <tsundoku> are there IRC channels for bastille, or is that all just folded into the main FreeBSD discussions?
14:11:52 <vkarlsen> tsundoku: I don't know of any. You can ask in here
14:13:36 <tsundoku> alright. I also asked in the -jails channel, but there are far more people here... I'm trying to create bastille jails with multiple vnets, but all the examples and documentation I'm finding only show one. I'm hoping to dig up some clear answers on whether that's possible before I start just trying things to see what happens
14:45:27 <vkarlsen> I haven't tinkered much with bastille, so I can't help you, but I'm sure there are others here who know something
15:09:53 <mns> tsundoku: there is a bastile IRC channel
15:10:20 <mns> tsundoku:  #bastillebsd for the channel here on libera
15:13:25 <nerozero> Remilia, parv, vkarlsen, thanks
15:13:34 <nerozero> basically I love quite things
15:14:01 <nerozero> so if cherry keys are soft and quite - it is for me
15:14:54 <vkarlsen> nerozero: The Cherry MX Blue keys are neither soft nor quiet
15:15:16 <CrtxReavr> My keyboard is loud AF. . . just now I like it.
15:15:36 <nerozero> vkarlsen, which one of them is soft and quite ?
15:16:47 <CrtxReavr> https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB4041A
15:16:50 <VimDiesel> Title: Unicomp, Inc.: Classic 101 Black Buckling Spring USB
15:20:04 <vkarlsen> nerozero: Red and Brown are quiet, not sure which one is quietest of them
15:20:29 <nerozero> vkarlsen, thank you so much!!!
15:21:20 <nerozero> pckeyboard - woow !
15:21:32 <vkarlsen> nerozero: My other keyboard (currently stashed away) has Red, and it's much quieter than the one with Blue, but it isn't quiet-quiet compared to el cheapo membrane-based keyboards. It's just quiet-ish for a mechanical keyboard.
15:21:48 <nerozero> I remember the time where the keyboard had magnetic - hall effect switches ...
15:22:42 <nerozero> So, red one ...
15:23:25 <vkarlsen> Or Brown might be better. I don't know. Ask Remilia.
15:24:24 <nerozero> https://techguided.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Mechanical-Switch-Comparison.gif <<< so this is the difference
15:25:14 <nerozero> https://techguided.com/red-vs-blue-vs-brown-mechanical-switches/
15:25:15 <VimDiesel> Title: Red vs Blue vs Brown: Which Mechanical Switch is Best?
15:25:30 <vkarlsen> Based on that gif + my experience, I'd go for the Brown if I wanted quiet
15:25:58 <nerozero> yes
15:26:00 <nerozero> same
15:26:08 <Remilia> nerozero: if you want 'soft' you need to decide if you want tactile or linear
15:26:15 <Remilia> because 'soft' is not a good descriptor
15:26:29 <nerozero> tactile looking promising to me
15:26:48 <tsundoku> mns: thanks. I tried to find it on their website but I didn't see anything
15:27:26 <Remilia> also MX Brown are not entirely 'quiet' and quiet mechanical switches just do not exist, but you can make them quieter with dampener O-rings
15:27:34 <rtyler> meena: bummer :/
15:29:00 <nerozero> so I should try at least something, then we can debate about something I have experience:)
15:29:07 <Remilia> or you could get a Topre 87UW (SE070S)
15:29:31 <tsundoku> I have Kailh BOX Silent Brown on my media PC keyboard and they're pretty quiet
15:29:33 <Remilia> (tactile, quiet, variable force)
15:29:43 <tsundoku> Topre are also very quiet and I like them too
15:30:19 <Remilia> the 87UW is ANSI layout with dampened variable force switches
15:30:44 <tsundoku> I use a Realforce R2 at work. it's fantastic
15:30:46 <Remilia> variable force meaning keys under your index fingers need more actuation force than under the ring and pinky fingers
15:31:27 <nerozero> woow
15:31:42 <Remilia> tsundoku: mine is 91UBK-S
15:32:23 <nerozero> https://www.amazon.com/Fujitsu-CG01000-291101-Realforce-Keyboard-Tenkeyless/dp/B07K9L6RFC/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=Realforce%2BR2&qid=1701703911&sr=8-2&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.17d9e15d-4e43-4581-b373-0e5c1a776d5d&th=1
15:32:24 <VimDiesel> Title: Amazon.com: Fujitsu Realforce R2 Keyboard (Tenkeyless, Ivory, Mixed Key Weight) : Electronics
15:32:36 <nerozero> The price ...
15:33:12 <vkarlsen> Yeah, but they last forever
15:33:24 <Remilia> nerozero: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_Realforce
15:33:25 <tsundoku> this one is mine https://www.realforce.co.jp/products/discontinued/R2TLA-JPV-IV/
15:33:25 <VimDiesel> Title: Topre Realforce - Deskthority wiki
15:33:26 <VimDiesel> Title: 製品 : REALFORCE TKL A / R2TLA-JPV-IV | REALFORCE | 日本製プレミアムキーボードの最高峰
15:33:32 <tsundoku> apparently there is an R3 out now. I haven't been paying attention
15:33:49 <nerozero> 55$ logitech washable keyboard lasted > 12 years to me
15:34:00 <Remilia> tsundoku: aw I do not like Fn instead of context menu
15:34:23 <tsundoku> does the context menu key do anything outside of Windows?
15:34:30 <tsundoku> I guess you can masp it to Compose or something...
15:34:36 <tsundoku> s/map
15:34:41 <nerozero> its basically shift+f10
15:35:10 <nerozero> never used to anything
15:35:17 <tsundoku> but I'm a weirdo who uses Mac-style bindings on Linux/BSD desktops, so YMMV
15:35:24 <tsundoku> I don't actually know what Shift+F10 does
15:35:47 <tsundoku> oh huh. it pops up context menus in X11 too
15:35:55 <Remilia> tsundoku: I use Windows due to work and other stuff, and single press context menu key is useful to me
15:36:01 <tsundoku> I don't know all those IBM/Microsoft bindings
15:36:25 <Remilia> it also works with my SGI machine the same way
15:36:27 <Remilia> so
15:38:41 <tsundoku> yeah, I think it all dates back to IBM CUA in the 80s that the people doing Motif etc. for Unix copied
15:39:17 <Remilia> and everyone now abandoning in electron™ apps
15:39:31 <tsundoku> heh
15:39:35 <tsundoku> I came in from a Mac background so I tend to use things like a Mac when I'm outside of the command line
15:40:04 <tsundoku> I get mad when I let go of the mouse button and a menu doesn't close
15:42:08 <tsundoku> on my SGI machines I remapped all those Alt+F9 etc in my 4Dwmrc to Alt+W A S D because I felt like it was easier to hit
15:42:18 <Remilia> 'I get mad when I let go of the mouse button and a menu doesn't close' Windows works the same way if you hold the mouse button
15:42:26 <tsundoku> for raise/lower/iconify/close
15:42:31 <Remilia> except some apps (looking at you Firefox) do not act like that
15:42:35 <tsundoku> it does sometimes! it depends on the app
15:43:06 <tsundoku> most of the time I find it not to work though
15:43:08 <Remilia> tsundoku: Windows API/GDI/Forms/WPF all act like that
15:43:13 <tsundoku> GTK is pretty good about it
15:43:14 <Remilia> custom stuff does not
15:43:30 <tsundoku> I don't use Windows much, so I tend to forget the specifics of its behavior
15:43:44 <tsundoku> mostly these days I get annoyed at Firefox for not doing it right
15:43:51 <Remilia> Firefox and anything JS-based is different
15:43:56 <tsundoku> yeah.
15:44:09 <Remilia> and it drives me crazy
15:44:15 <tsundoku> I try to stick to GTK apps when I can
15:44:25 <tsundoku> no good GTK browsers, though...
15:44:31 <Remilia> 'Electron: we abandon 40 years of UI/UX design'
15:44:59 <tsundoku> I run MATE with FVWM as the window manager and a bunch of patches to make them to what I want that upstream doesn't support
15:45:46 <tsundoku> if I were to summarize it I'd probably say "BeOS for X11"
15:46:59 <vkarlsen> Speaking of UX, I played with this today: https://cdn.fosstodon.org/media_attachments/files/111/522/209/363/070/079/original/50c76b2ce69e40a8.png
15:51:19 <Remilia> back when I used desktop FreeBSD I just uhh
15:51:23 <Remilia> please do not point and laugh
15:51:29 <Remilia> used WindowMaker
15:52:00 <vkarlsen> I still use Fluxbox on my laptop
15:52:07 <vkarlsen> It's super responsive
15:53:05 <vkarlsen> And the ability to tab up un-related windows is something I haven't found anywhere else
16:01:42 <tsundoku> WindowMaker is perfectly respectable
16:02:10 <tsundoku> I just don't like things that work like Windows myself. I didn't grow up with it and it's not what I expect
16:04:35 <tsundoku> one thing I love about WindowMaker is how good it is at handling applications as discrete units relative to anything else on the X window manager front. I used it a little bit but I'm not very NeXTy in general, so I ended up going my own way
16:56:31 <Remilia> tsundoku: the one WM I never understood was GNOME (and uhh what it was called? Unity?)
16:57:07 <Remilia> KDE makes sense to me, GNOME does not
16:59:36 <angry_vincent> gnome2 was okeish
17:01:39 <angry_vincent> gnome3 was horrible design choice ( my opinion )
17:03:57 <cybercrypto> just to add pepper to the sauce: Gnome would not have reason to exist, if kde had not have serious qt corporate license issues...
17:56:16 <Remilia> unlike oneprovider netcup constantly gets blocked by MS for SMTP :|
18:10:44 <Remilia> interesting that after upgrading to 14.0 pf behaviour seems to have changed somehow
18:10:58 <Remilia> or might not be pf?
18:12:10 <Remilia> my jails, which have IPs on a private IPv4 subnet, used to send emails with dma to my smarthost jail through the external IP fine
18:12:20 <Remilia> now it times out presumably because of this:
18:12:55 <Remilia> 7:39:43.908749 IP 10.1.0.2.34440 > 94.16.X.X.25: Flags [S], seq 851001814, win 65535, ...  17:39:43.908846 IP 10.1.0.4.25 > 10.1.0.2.34440: Flags [S.], seq 3014344005, ack 851001815, win 65535, ...
18:13:06 <Remilia> this is weird
18:13:16 <Remilia> and I did not change pf configuration
18:14:56 <Remilia> (the external IP does a pf redirect)