00:00:53 there were plenty of articles on networking and such things back in the day 00:01:11 GUI, Networking, Security ... big three items 00:01:25 he mades several predictions that proven to be right later: that every single computer would end up having a network card which would cost 0$, that whatever UNIX evolution would exist in the future, the important thing would be the capability of running several processes in parallel, but that the multiuser would be irrelevant, and he made other comments that I do not think they were obvious back then 00:03:08 it is old stuff, it seems from other age. Many of the contributors are no longer there too (which is obvious). There was another article about the director of research of AT&T talking about networking, convergence of Voice and Data and things like that 00:07:04 mns I am reading 1985 now, so the GUI is still not that much a thing -yet-. There are comments about the BLIT and there was a lightweight window manager I do not recall the name 00:08:13 MGR 00:08:27 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ManaGeR 00:08:28 Title: ManaGeR - Wikipedia 00:26:32 uskerine: you're going down a rabbit hole of fascinating history :-) You can get a bilt emulator with 9front, a Plan 9 fork. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blit_(computer_terminal) 00:26:33 Title: Blit (computer terminal) - Wikipedia 03:41:42 Is FreeBSD also affected by this data loss bug? https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/issues/15526 03:41:46 Title: some copied files are corrupted (chunks replaced by zeros) · Issue #15526 · openzfs/zfs · GitHub 03:41:46 15526 – [NEW PORT] security/pgpgpg: a wrapper for GnuPG to emulate PGP 2.6 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=15526 03:41:53 And is there a way to update to a version that isn't? 03:42:08 It sounds pretty serious 03:42:41 Especially because a scrub doesn't see it 03:44:32 wildeboskat: Look at the comment with: "With FreeBSD 14.0-RELEASE, there's complementary use of the vfs.zfs.bclone_enabled kernel state, 0 (zero):" 03:44:50 Hmm I don't really know what that means :) 03:45:32 But from what I understand from the hacker news thread, the bug also appears with block cloning deactivated, it's just much less likely 03:46:15 For example here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38405732 03:46:17 Title: The root cause of the bug may have been present for a long time. It increased in... | Hacker News 03:46:43 But his "quick workaround" obviously doesn't work on freebsd as it requires sysfs 03:48:10 On Linux they do this: echo 0 > /sys/module/zfs/parameters/zfs_dmu_offset_next_sync 03:48:21 But on FreeBSD there must be a corresponding sysctl I imagine 03:48:28 But not sure which 03:48:38 hrm, I thought the bug only appeared with block cloning, but I'm insufficiently familiar with it 03:51:33 vfs.zfs.dmu_offset_next_sync 03:54:03 Thanks! 03:54:32 This was on for me :( 03:54:38 On 13.2 04:06:05 The issue is neither related to BRT nor DMU offsetting, it's _probably_ related to SEEK_HOLE. All BRT or DMU offsetting seems to do is make the race-condition that's the source of the bug more likely to occur. For what it's worth though, outside of specific reproducers, I haven't actually seen anyone make mention of running into the issue on FreeBSD systems, and I'm not sure I understand why. 04:07:50 A change to the GNU coreutils package, which is used by a lot of Linux distributions, made it much more likely to happen on Linux, and it's not like it _can't_ happen on FreeBSD (see: the reproducers proving that), but it doesn't seem to without running them? 04:10:27 I can't imagine that there won't be an EN for it, but it has to be tested properly first and that takes time. 04:11:47 It did make me wonder whether KCSAN (the Kernel Concurrency SANitizer, ported from NetBSD to FreeBSD) would've caught this, because it seems like the exact sort of thing that that's made for. 04:16:12 There's a report of a build failing for a file containing zeroes: echo 0 > /sys/module/zfs/parameters/zfs_dmu_offset_next_sync 04:16:14 Oops 04:16:24 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38408993 04:16:25 Title: The recent FreeBSD 14 release apparently failed to build for one of the platform... | Hacker News 04:16:32 That's the right link 04:17:12 But thanks for the explanation debdrup! Do you know when a version that's fixed is pushed? Or does it require more testing to determine the "probably" part? 04:18:54 wildeboskat: I can't imagine that it won't be part of an EN, so I'd recommend subscribing to the announcement mailing list on https://lists.freebsd.org/subscription/freebsd-announce 04:18:56 Title: FreeBSD Mailing lists: subscription for freebsd-announce 04:19:30 Ugh I really hate mailing lists clutting up my mailbox, but I will keep an eye on the web part of it, thanks! 04:19:46 announce@ is moderated, only people with explicit permission can use it. 04:20:23 Ah ok 04:20:25 I see 04:20:35 But this sounds like a big enough issue to warrant an EN? 04:21:52 What does and doesn't get an EN isn't really codified, but like I said, I can't imagine an EN not getting issued. 04:22:17 Ahhh sorry I understand now, I thought you meant to say that it wouldn't be part of an EN which surprised me 04:22:18 Thanks! 04:22:27 announce@ gets less than 10 mails / month (with a few exceptions where there were 11/month). 04:22:37 Thanks! That's pretty decent :3 04:22:45 wildeboskat: that's probably on me, so I apologize. 04:23:22 Nono I reread it and you said it correctly 04:23:45 It's 5am here so I'm not at my most observant 04:51:18 fwiw, KCSAN wouldn't have detected it. its was a logic error - one logical operation dirtied two different kinds of things, but lseek() was only checking one. 04:52:51 under what circumstances do I need to be worried about this ZFS bug ? 04:53:43 Well apparently block cloning and DMU offset (whatever that is :) ) make it more likely to happen 04:54:16 But don't take my word for it 04:54:22 I'm not really into filesystems 04:54:24 I jsut have defaults for ZFS 04:54:37 you almost certainly do not need to worry about it. 04:56:04 and if you set sysctl vfs.zfs.dmu_offset_next_sync=0 , you definitely do not need to worry about it. 04:57:14 Thank you 04:58:06 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=275308 is the EN tracking issue 04:58:08 Title: 275308 – EN tracking issue for potential ZFS data corruption 04:58:08 What I find the most worrying is that it's silent - the features which are supposed to detect corruption don't 04:58:35 veg: how did your netatalk stuff go? 04:59:08 yeah. fortunately its wildly difficult to hit on any non-contrived workload, and even harder to hit without the application noticing 05:03:30 debdrup: fwiw i'm pretty sure that exact bug is what broke the PINE64 build for 14.0 05:03:45 some folks had been hitting it intermittently in kernel builds 05:04:03 oh, mentioned later 05:04:23 kevans: You're referring to this right? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38408993 05:04:24 Title: The recent FreeBSD 14 release apparently failed to build for one of the platform... | Hacker News 05:04:57 Oh yeah I just dug down into it and it is jndeed the PINE build 05:05:15 yeah 05:05:41 That sounds pretty real-world to me o_O 05:05:52 robn: oh, hey, how long have you been hiding out in here? :-) 05:06:54 PS not trying to detract from FreeBSD or ZFS, just worried about my data lol 05:07:01 100+TB is a lot :D 05:07:18 wildeboskat: I said "difficult to hit without the application noticing". in this case, the application noticed 05:07:24 Ahh good point 05:07:38 wildeboskat: I'd put money on you not having any stored corruption caused by this bug 05:07:44 Thanks :3 05:07:47 I might lose, but I'll almost certainly win :) 05:07:51 Most of my data is actually not on ZFS 05:08:05 Though I was planning to move it, but I'll wait a but until all this is clear 05:08:37 It is mostly on ext4 with the idea behind it that a simple FS is easier to extract data from if it screws upw 05:08:44 kevans: here, maybe a year. my history of lurking in irc is more like 25 years lol 05:08:58 However the lack of block-checksums etc is something worth going to ZFS for 05:10:07 wildeboskat: all other things being equal, I'd prefer to be recovering from ZFS than ext4 (or any FFS-style filesystem). even the worst failures still leave a lot of structure on the disk 05:10:21 Really? I didn't imagien that 05:10:26 but I recognise the tools and expertise aren't as readily available 05:10:35 ah, nice- always nice to see zfs folks further infiltrating the freebsd community, whether for zfs purposes or not 05:10:39 Yeah I wouldn't know how a ZFS works, ext4 is easier to understand 05:11:14 yeah, coz ZFS never overwrites anything, only copies. including its own housekeeping structures. so if you totally toast the current version of something, a previous one is likely to have something you can use 05:11:17 this is going to sound crazy: Have ZFS users, who use the /compressed option on a mount.. notice performance lose with processing files/ 05:11:39 i got time machine to work on mac, through netatalk, but it is HELLA slow.. like in 20 minutes, i have copied 25 megs of data... 05:12:16 (also snapshots etc out of the box make it easy to make even _more_ copies) 05:12:46 well scratch taht question.. it is doing "burst" uploads.. it has to be the client and not the server.. never mind 05:13:23 kevans: this year I learned that I've always been a freebsd-er at heart, I just accidentally ended up doing linux for 20 years and being depressed the whole time :D 05:13:55 Linux had a few good years. 05:16:04 wildeboskat: I used to be on linux, using ext3/ext4 and got some corruption. freebsd was the only OS from which I was able to recover that data. I tried NetBSD and a bunch of other linuxes to no avail. After that, I just switched to ZFS, have had numerous power outages and such things, but no data loss. once you get the hang of some of the basic stuff, its easy. 05:16:23 Linux is _fine_. I just think we deserve more than that 05:19:09 yeah, all operating systems/filesystems/disks will eat your data sometimes. can't do much about that as long as physics exists and humans are fallible 05:19:38 zfs at least gives you a fighting chance of knowing before its too late 05:20:25 I'm a FreeBSD user by the way, it's just my fileserver is still on Linux because I couldn't find a great BSD replacement for mhddfs 05:21:23 oh for sure. my daily driver is still linux, because I've been doing it for decades and its very hard to find time to disentangle it 05:21:37 not that I have to. all friends here 05:22:04 (it is running zfs ofc) 05:22:07 anyway I should stop shilling for Big Storage and get back to this sodding bug 05:24:03 robn: aha, so what I'm hearing is that we have enough upside that we could conceivably annoy you with enough quality of life improvements to implement that you eventually accept a committer branding 05:27:58 oh quite easily. I'm already on that road; not hard to accelerate that by sniping me with interesting tidbits 05:28:46 ... so long as zfs doesn't keep catching fire and taking up all my free time, anyway 05:29:43 eheh 06:54:58 What is FreeBSD like these days, thinking of switching again to F'BSD 06:55:11 like for desktop? 07:47:36 AumShivaya: it's pretty fine 08:00:27 cool la_mettrie 08:00:34 Does Steam work on it yet? 08:00:48 with Linux Compat or something? 08:14:42 i'm not sure. zork, lgeneral, freeorion and vms-empire are enough to me. maybe somebody else here knows the answer 08:15:23 what is a zork? 08:36:46 I am migrating from freebsd to debian but my disks are encrypted via geli that is not in linux. Should I use freebsd (as guest) inside virt manager and access those drives? 08:38:22 so i want to give the fbsd server some swap but am trying to think of the best way to do this. i guess i have these 2GB partitions.. is it common practice to mirror them? 08:44:08 Beladona: i would think, yes. You can't access them from non-BSD env 09:09:08 Beladona if you can't get answers here go to the lists, forums or discord. Everything should work not just one place. Of course you will need to wait for an answer 09:15:33 jb1277976: I love fbsd but cannot make manythings work. I have to make this choice 09:15:42 angry_vincent: ok 09:16:15 angry_vincent: any thoughts on migrating current freebsd in to that guest virt manager based? 09:18:34 Hi, upgraded to 14.0-RELEASE yesterday and everything is working fine now. During the upgrade I noticed that the root users shell no longer is /bin/csh in a passwd merge. I did not dare to change the root shell during the upgrade so on my machine root still has /bin/csh instead of the now default /bin/sh 09:18:58 Is it recommended to change to /bin/sh for root? 09:43:39 hi i have a anano pi r4s with realtek NICs that i ran freebsd 13 + opnsense and the iperf3 speeds were only 500mbit max? Have things changed with freeebsd 14 and realtek NICs? 09:43:55 s/anano/nano 09:52:52 Is there anything that freebsd do for zfs and not zfs FS itself? Ie something OS dependant. Eg checking disks automatically itself if corruption happens etc. I am migrating to debian but will use zfs. So that is why I was asking 09:55:54 thorre: use whichever shell you prefer, I really doubt csh will be removed from base any time soon 09:56:29 the reason for the change is most likely that 95% of *NIX/POSIX users expect Bourne shell, not C shell 09:56:30 Remilia: I have the same feeling to but I wanted to make sure ;-) Maybe someone knows something that I do not. 09:56:58 yeah, lots of crusty people (like me) prefer csh as their root shell 09:57:18 I cannot deal with csh haha 09:57:19 crusty people ... made me smile 09:57:33 but, 90% of my csh usage follows from jexex -l foo csh 09:57:56 I remember when working with sunos and the "cool" shell to use was korn shell, "ksh -o emacs" for esc-completion. 09:58:40 thorre: my first non-handmade PC was a SPARCstation with SunOS and I am 100% sure the default was the Bourne shell 09:59:06 it was the same on my second PC, an SGI Indy 09:59:41 cool people sometimes deviate from defaults 10:00:07 Yes, sh was the default. Ksh was included from Sun. And bash could be installed via cdrom ;-) 10:00:34 * thorre had ULTRA-2, ULTRA-5 and ULTRA-10 workstations 10:00:50 mine was the first SPARCstation I think 10:01:02 it is somewhere in the basement back at home 10:01:03 I used bash cuz i didn't know better, but then again, i only came to sun at the 9/10 era 10:01:16 together with PC-8801 and various PC-98xx 10:01:17 I remember when a new hire asked me how to turn the machine off after he worked for us for several months. There was an email about weekend maintanance and he had never shut down his work station before 10:01:29 I still use ksh -o emacs 10:02:54 paulf: I migrated to zsh when that was made the default in macOS. I could honestly not see me having a shell without fuzzyfind and other nice things that zsh has. 10:03:17 But it depends on your use-case. 10:04:07 in retrospect upgrading to 14 was a bad decision 10:04:38 thorre: you can keep csh of course, the point was to change the default 10:05:05 Beladona: sorry, i cannot help with migration. i never used debian and quite possible never will. anyway, not a topic for this channel. 10:05:36 Remilia: you have to suffer so that others don't 10:05:49 yeah, nobody is talking about deprecating csh 10:05:55 sams: Realtec NICs are genuinely terrible so you are likely getting bottlenecked on performance 10:06:15 pstef: I will change to /bin/sh since this is the new default and I barely never use the root-user account anyway. When sudo is not enough I usually use the toor-user with zsh. root for me is only for rescue scenarios and there it can be good to have the default. 10:06:32 angry_vincent: ok 10:06:37 Remilia: any chance you're monitoring can record processes are running during those high load periods and what their stacks look like? 10:06:57 can someone offer advice on how to track vnode exhaustion (possibly leak?) because I really do not like the kernel spending 4% of its CPU time in locks and another 100% in vnlru 10:07:09 put differently, can we can figure what starts it? 10:07:10 meena: I am not good enough to figure that out 10:07:12 angry_vincent: what desktop OS you use? 10:07:28 I know it is definitely something in periodic 10:07:40 and in periodic, you have find 10:07:45 which likely loves vnodes 10:08:20 oh, I could move periodic runs to a time when I am awake 10:08:22 I'm thinking of something simple, like a cron job that records what's happening at the time in a text file 10:08:31 or that lol 10:08:41 sams: I don't claim to understand networking, but just recently I had to disable LRO on the FreeBSD side to get speed from 6 MB/s to 90 MB/s (over a gigabit link) 10:10:24 meena: you know what was the worst after I tried increasing max vnodes, the way jails went slow motion 10:10:57 `service jail stop X` just stalling forever 10:13:08 now that sounds like something you can take lots of nice dtrace snapshots of 10:13:36 hotkernel, pstacks, etc 10:16:53 meena: yes but that is just the consequences of vnlru spending time in locks 10:19:32 looked at the load graph carefully and it is definitely periodic, spike starts at 03:01 10:21:45 :sicko: Oh yeah! 3a. 10:26:10 moved periodic to 13:00 10:26:29 now wondering if it will trigger today 10:28:29 meena: if I changed the crontab line that already ran today, will it run at the new, later, time? 10:28:49 I am assuming yes, doubt cron cares 10:29:23 not like it can tell that I edited a line and not removed and added 10:32:35 Beladona: i do not know what is desktop OS. to me this sounds like artifical word construct. i use wayland compositor. 10:56:20 angry_vincent: Desktop OS: an OS designed for good desktop support. E.g GUI, bluetooth, hardware, wacom pen (muy case of issues) 10:56:27 etc 11:03:04 In my experience, there's such a wide amount of variance in what people want and expect from a desktop, that just about nothing can be generalized. 11:03:40 debdrup: a few things are thought to be basic. Eg bluetooth 11:03:52 About all that can be said is that FreeBSD can be made to work well as a desktop OS, if you've got the time, patience, inclination, and technical knowhow/willingness to learn. 11:04:04 Beladona: I have bluetooth on my T480s working just fine. 11:04:17 Tested with both a mouse and a headset. 11:04:23 Many do. At what cost? How much time? 11:04:47 Beladona: that's hard to quantify; how long does it take for a power-user to configure _any_ OS? 11:05:02 An unenumerable amount, because powerusers tend to always tweak something or other. 11:05:20 Agreed but some OSes do it for you. Built in. Better hardware support out of the box 11:05:31 If it doesn't work for you, don't sunk-cost it - just accept that and move on. 11:05:32 so millions of power users don't have to spend any second on it 11:06:59 1 second X a million users = 1 m man seconds. 11:08:48 Where did you get the idea that the FreeBSD project or community wants to market itself to millions of power users? 11:08:54 when I reinstall Windows from scratch it takes me around 2 days to set it up just right 11:09:17 Few people want to just get the job done quickly. Despite being power users, they don't want to spend time. 11:09:19 so I dunno, I feel like for power users there would not be much difference 11:09:25 Well if not millions, thousands? 11:10:02 Beladona: it sounds like you're conflating what would make it easier for you as being equivalent to what would make it easier for everyone. 11:11:25 I am relating my feelings as a human and assuming that many would feel similar "getting the job done in less time and expecting many things from OS out of the box". Specially if the same is done in many other known OSes. Freebsd had been the best OS I ever used. Except the things said above. 11:11:45 So no bad feelings about Freebsd. Just exchanging thoughts 11:12:26 setting up a FreeBSD desktop system for me would definitely take less time than with Windows but maybe you mean Mac OS? 11:12:45 I last used that on a Powerbook G4 and remember nothing 11:12:50 Remilia: how many times have you set up Windows, for comparison? 11:12:51 If anyone is a power user, it does not means he and ALL others like him (thousands if not millions) have to spend time on it. VS that be made as in the core of OS by OS devs 11:13:31 debdrup: I would not be able to count, likely >200 11:13:42 actually scratch that 11:13:48 >500, counting from 3.11 11:13:55 When I was a Windows toucher, I would routinely install Windows often enough, that to this day I could probably still do it without attaching a monitor (though, I suspect, I'd need a dummy output, since I don't believe the Windows installer boots if there's no output attached..) 11:14:14 Remilia: yes, and if you'd had to setup FreeBSD that often I suspect you'd have a bit more familiarity with the process. 11:14:35 yeah but even without that it takes me less time than with Windows 11:14:51 Its not just setup. Its so many things. I can repeat if Remilia is new : Brave browser, netflix, wacom pen, bluetooth versions support, less programming app/packages eg nodejs, this list goes onn. 11:14:54 Remilia: Ah, I misread, sorry! 11:15:43 when I say set up I mean everything needed for my tasks 11:16:02 oh ok 11:16:10 configuring Windows for my needs takes two days 11:16:29 because I keep hitting stuff that works the wrong way that I forgot to fix, etc. 11:16:30 no script/batch files help in windows? 11:16:55 I stick to regular Firefox for reasons beyond the scope of this conversation, and have nothing to do with Netflix since I don't like paying subscription fees for things I don't use often - but bluetoth, wacom pen, and third-party software aren't things I've really run into issues with. 11:17:17 Microsoft has routinely made it more difficult to automate the processes. 11:17:39 It used to be that you could slipstream updates onto the installer media, with a little care - but now you basically have to go the WSUS route. 11:17:58 IME, bluetooth devices were easier to pair with a laptop running Linux 11:18:18 There's also a _severe_ lack of a proper package manager, out of the box (yes, winget is useful in one sense, since it's what's used to install Chocolatey..). 11:18:26 debdrup: many in this channel reported bluetooth issues in my presence. It's ok about your feedback but many people do want netflix, brave etc. As you said, we should not assume 11:18:43 * Beladona steps away from the conversation as it's going offtopic 11:19:48 Beladona: it's one thing to want something, but another thing to expect it; at the end of the day, FreeBSD exists because of volunteer effort, not because a company is investing money into it - that's the fundamental difference between FreeBSD and the majority of Linux distributions that it gets periodically compared with. 11:20:25 I respect the free source community! 11:20:31 I understand! 11:21:02 I'm sure you do, but it's a bit hard to read that through all the expectations you're outlining on what you think should work, is my point. 11:22:00 Right: I wish something could be done regardless of the situation you wrote (free/volunteer etc). I am not sure what but this OS deserves more. 11:22:03 also to be honest modern wifi and bluetooth situation is terrible more often than not 11:22:09 especially wifi 11:22:15 At the end of the day, FreeBSD _isn't_ a desktop OS. It's an OS in the older Unix-like style, where you're given a compiler, the source code, and instructions on how to build the OS itself. From there, you get to use it as a building block to do whatever you want with it. 11:23:02 Those building blocks can take the shape of a desktop OS, but it's still up to the user to do a non-insignificant amount of work. 11:23:42 I don't think the FreeBSD project or community is going to do away with that notion any time soon. 11:23:55 I just lost hope that if I would buy something (bluetooth), or install something (nodejs, clojure/rust), I might not find the hardware support of software version supported. Tangible example: No support for puppeteer (a node lib). So no point in using the OS despite it is my favourite 11:25:04 Anyway, I'll get off my two-step ladder and leave the floor to someone else. 11:25:16 many other examples. No NVM. (node version manager). 11:25:28 debdrup: yes. BUt I must say I had a lovely time in Freebsd 11:25:39 debdrup: hey thanks for all the support ! 11:25:41 :) 11:26:27 Beladona: a lot of modern bluetooth and wifi hardware are black boxes with proprietary drivers and no documentation 11:26:39 ya.. 11:58:38 If one wants a pre-configured FreeBSD desktop OS, use GhostBSD. Even though I'm "power user", I do like that FreeBSD comes with a solid base to build off of in DIY way, be it for desktop, server, or embedded. 12:01:15 ok but still the issues I listed will be there 12:01:22 got to go 13:53:14 Remilia: Hi again, missed what have been talking here recently ^^ anything new regarding your issue? 14:02:39 nope 14:04:01 I have no idea how to investigate it properly and no one else probably runs 10+ jails with relatively low amounts of requests per second 14:08:07 Remilia: Do you have unnecessary periodics disabled in each your jail by a periodic.conf file for each? 14:08:22 yes 14:08:31 I've seen they run lots of pseudo stuff causing high CPU load, in the past. 14:08:32 for nothing. 14:09:05 Remilia: I have this for each Jail of mine: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/ssuv1WMS 14:09:05 to be honest I am not sure how to explain that I had zero issues even without disabling periodic scripts back before I upgraded to 14.0 14:09:06 Title: Mozilla Community Pastebin/ssuv1WMS (Bash) 14:09:24 and how to explain that yes, I have them disabled since yesterday for testing purposes 14:10:24 powerd question here, i am noticing that on one of my machines.. powerd just "dies" freebsd 13.2-p4 and when i run powerd -v this is the output i get: https://bsd.to/Zi2V 14:10:25 Title: dpaste/Zi2V (Plain Text) 14:10:41 my question is, would it "hurt" to "allow" the CPU to go up to 3000mhz.. this is a pi4 14:10:47 considering that CPU load never spiked for more than 2-3 minutes prior to the upgrade, and that I upgraded using the recommended method, with the latest freebsd-update, from 13.2-RELEASE-p5 14:10:49 just seems like i am "limiting" it if it wants to burst higher 14:11:20 voy4g3r2: if it'll clock that high up. You're gonna need some major improvements to its cooling. 14:11:27 tercaL: there should be a way to disable all, and only enable the ones you want 14:11:47 It'll throttle down if it can't dissipate the heat it generates. 14:12:10 magnahelix: i got a fan and heat sink on it and it is in a basement area where quite cool.. but better to be safe than sorry 14:12:20 i was just not expecting it to jump that high up.. since it is rated for 1500mhz 14:12:37 2000mhz is entirely possible with that pi4. 14:13:00 Maybe even 2.1 -2.2 ghz. 14:14:53 meena: How? 14:15:18 Remilia: i think you have enough circumstantial evidence to file a bug (and assign it to mjg@ ;) 14:15:30 Remilia: and for each your jail, in their rc.conf files: cron_flags="$cron_flags -J 15" 14:15:57 I am not sure what would that help with 14:16:05 tercaL: i don't know, but going from implicit to explicit would be useful 14:16:25 Remilia: Preventing cron jobs to start at the exact time for all jails 14:16:33 tercaL: she's got like 8 jails, not 80 or 800 14:17:05 tercaL: allow me to explain, I have been running the same setup on FreeBSD 12.x and 13.x for years, with no signs of trouble 14:17:17 I probably forgot to mention this before 14:19:55 magnahelix: i would just like xfce4 to NOT tell me powerd died unexpectedly.. thi sis a dev box for a project. 14:20:21 tercaL: two weeks ago: https://i.koumakan.jp/2023-11-26/1701008382.png this week: https://i.koumakan.jp/2023-11-26/1701008410.png 14:20:26 i was going to install libreoffice but gnumeric is causing enough headaches.. the only app i am using on xfce4 14:21:08 the difference between these two graphs: FreeBSD 13.2-RELEASE-p5 vs FreeBSD 14.0-RELEASE 14:21:12 nothing else 14:21:25 Remilia: please open a bug report. just to have all the info tracked, and everything we've tried to exclude any hypothesis 14:21:51 I'd open a bug report. 14:22:09 meena: I guess I will have to :\ 14:22:40 * Remilia does not like opening non-ports bug reports because it is very scary 14:23:38 core developers are just people 14:24:28 most of them, anyway, as far as i know. I've only met one in person, so this is a big extrapolation 14:25:27 meena: imagine getting a reply from d.e.j. under your report 14:26:44 I dunno who that is 14:56:14 well xfce4, powerd do not like each other.. boo 14:56:23 i guess time to find some other wm to rdp into 15:14:01 wow hard core unresponsive.. but xfce4 looks soo pretty 15:18:55 voy4g3r2: hah 15:19:06 what's powerd doing to it? 15:20:52 there's also powerdxx in ports. it might be able to do better 15:27:42 meena: i have no root cause, i load xfce4 i try to load gnumeric and it just "hangs" then i get powerd unexpectedly crashes 15:27:47 <_xor> I forgot about this, don't know where I got it originally, but I have this in my notes and forgot how useful it is... 15:27:51 <_xor> comm -23 <(sysctl -T -a -N | sort) <(sysctl -W -a -N | sort) 15:28:16 <_xor> That command is labeled as: "List tunables that need to be set in /boot/loader.conf vs /etc/sysctl.conf" 15:34:52 i will borrow that :) 15:38:44 _xor: cool 15:58:00 -sh: Syntax error: "(" unexpected (expecting word) 15:58:09 things never work in FreeBSD! 16:02:38 pstef: less symbols more words please -- signed, /bin/sh 16:04:05 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGWiTvYZR_w 16:04:06 Title: "Weird Al" Yankovic - grammar lesson - YouTube 16:05:29 pstef: <( is a bashism, not implemented in FreeBSD /bin/sh AFAIK 16:12:01 bash comm -23 <(sysctl -T -a -N | sort) <(sysctl -W -a -N | sort) 16:12:56 I'm spoiled with having a history command, I tried sh, but it's missing that killer feature. 16:13:23 yes I'm aware it does create a history file 16:13:56 I'd be massively unproductive if I didn't have my history XD 16:14:26 thedaemon: bash -c 'comm -23 <(sysctl -T -a -N | sort) <(sysctl -W -a -N | sort)' 16:14:32 so if it does create the file then what is it missing? 16:14:44 otherwise the current shell still tries to expand the <() 16:15:17 ahh :) 16:15:37 pstef, you have to cat the history file to view the history 16:15:44 there is no "history" command in the shell 16:16:11 cat ~/.history 16:16:11 there is fc -l and I think recently we added a "history" alias for it 16:17:14 what's the "man" command to find the help for fc? 16:17:16 I forgot XD 16:17:33 man fc brings up builtin(1) 16:17:35 man sh 16:18:04 there is another way 16:18:25 ahh it's a bash feature 16:18:28 "help fc" 16:18:37 something else sh is missing 16:18:39 lol 16:18:58 pstef, thanks for the tip!! :) 16:19:03 https://ohmyz.sh/#install 16:19:05 Title: Oh My Zsh - a delightful & open source framework for Zsh 16:19:06 I learn new things every day 16:19:39 i really need to get my configs in a git repo... this is becoming painful 16:19:56 do it, I find it very helpful 16:24:28 hrm.. interesting that xfce was working, even though i didn't have an /etc/fstab for proc /proc procfs rw 0 0 16:25:46 why wouldn't it work? 16:28:15 pstef: not 100% sure, just hte handbook says it needs to be there and i am trying to figure out why powerd just crashes .. when it is loaded 16:30:16 can you show the handbook page where you see that? 16:30:53 https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/desktop/#xfce-configuration 16:30:55 Title: Chapter 8. Desktop Environments | FreeBSD Documentation Portal 16:31:38 and so far so good.. i just did a reboot for sanity of test.. but it is actually "working" but will keep playing 16:31:52 all i have running, minus xfcs, is gnumeric to do some excel stuff 16:33:14 very interesting, because I've been running xfce for a long time without procfs mounted 16:33:33 procfs is optional on FreeBSD 16:33:51 but is it optional for XFCE is my question 16:34:55 the way that i read that section, it appears to be required.. at least it is implied 16:35:11 well it does say require, so one would say it is 16:35:18 and since i added it, no powerd crashes.. so far 16:35:35 I cannot find information about it, but it appears to be a linuxism 16:36:01 man 5 procfs 16:36:19 yes, it is.. dbus requires it to work.. i do know that 16:36:32 well at least it was "always" there from that world. 16:36:57 I have it in my /etc/fstab and I don't even use xfce 16:36:57 I think it was an Irixism 16:37:01 probably for dbus 16:38:36 It was in Unix 8th edition XD 16:39:12 sysctl is the new way in FreeBSD and OpenBSD killed /proc years ago 16:39:53 makes sense to me, explains why i had to add it to /etc/fstab but so far xfce is much much more responsive 16:40:07 nice :) 16:57:52 i think xfce only needs /proc for a few features to work (like powerd) 17:02:30 I need to get powerd to work speaking of that 17:02:35 and smartd 17:35:10 CueXXIII: which explains why powerd kept crashing and since i enabled that /etc/fstab "feature" it has yet to do it :) 17:57:11 After running a regular poudriere update, Nextcloud fails to update. I see `ld-elf.so.1: /usr/local/lib/php/20210902/apcu.so: Undefined symbol "php_pcre2_match_data_create_from_pattern"` 18:02:22 How do I figure out a) which port installed /usr/local/lib/php/20210902/apcu.so and b) how to fix the problem 18:05:46 Schamschula: pkg which /usr/local/lib/php/20210902/apcu.so 18:06:48 The apcu.so extension is probably compiled for a different PHP version than you're using 18:07:29 dh: It needs a revision bump, after the update to php 8.1.26 18:08:57 From which version? 18:09:11 8.1.25 18:10:09 i.e. [7/46] Upgrading php81 from 8.1.25 to 8.1.26... 18:10:35 Hm, that's rather minor difference, usually PHP extensions are not that picky 18:10:53 Hm, does your php have pcre module? 18:11:07 php -m | grep pcre 18:11:10 You would thing 18:11:30 s/thing/think/ 18:11:43 Never assume, always check & verify 18:12:15 It gives me pcre 18:12:26 ok that's not working 18:17:33 Someone here who can verify a statement / question about a zfs pool upgrade before I do it? 18:17:55 I have read: https://www.freebsd.org/releases/14.0R/relnotes/ 18:17:56 Title: FreeBSD 14.0-RELEASE Release Notes | The FreeBSD Project 18:18:58 Based on those instructions i have "mount_msdosfs /dev/nda0p1 /boot/efi" and copied a file "cp /boot/loader.efi /boot/efi/EFI/BOOT/BOOTX64.efi" 18:19:22 thorre: double-check /boot/efi/EFI/FreeBSD 18:19:22 Is that all that I need to do before I upgrade my ZFS pools? 18:19:36 there may be a loader.efi there that's actuallyused instead depending on your boot config 18:20:49 [0]helio~ # find /boot/efi 18:20:51 /boot/efi 18:20:53 /boot/efi/EFI 18:20:55 /boot/efi/EFI/BOOT 18:20:57 /boot/efi/EFI/BOOT/BOOTX64.efi 18:20:59 [0]helio~ # 18:21:32 kevans: seems like BOOTX64.efi is the only file 18:22:00 Watch out for the block cloning bug if you're upgrading your pool. 18:22:22 psychonate: Isn't that disabled by default? 18:22:35 on release yes 18:22:48 kevans: I am on release. 18:23:00 and cool re: only \efi\boot; that's a bit of an older setup but it's valid 18:23:17 So, the file that I copied to /boot/efi. Is that all I need to do before upgrading my pools? 18:23:32 should be, yes 18:23:42 kevans: THank you for verifying 18:23:51 thorre: I copied it to /boot/efi/freebsd/loader.efi 18:24:01 that'll make sure the copy of loader matches the feature set enabled on the pool, which should be sufficient once we've made it all the way to a release (in general) 18:24:09 dh: their setup doesn't use this one 18:24:13 If I remember correctly, I did that AFTER not paying attention to zpool upgrade issues 18:24:57 systems installed before 13.0, or maybe even 12.0, just used the removable media default in \EFI\Boot; we've since added \EFI\FreeBSD\loader.efi and create appropriate efibootmgr to establish it 18:25:05 https://your.ls/d20in 18:25:07 Title: Paste.to 18:25:27 yeah that's fine 18:25:31 I think mine has been upgraded for the past 4 or 5 years so that makes it to old for production but just right for home use. 18:25:50 OK, will upgrade and reboot, wish me luck. 18:25:54 good luc 18:30:59 That was quick. 18:31:11 Yes, it made it! 18:31:35 zpool status is all good 18:31:43 not that quick compared to my home router (a 6W AMD Jaguar system) 18:31:48 time to give the pools a good scrub 18:35:25 woot 18:36:41 you might also be interested in setting vfs.zfs.dmu_offset_next_sync=0, but the reports we've seen so far on FreeBSD seem to mostly be in part of the build system for src 18:37:06 Think I missed to copy the efi-file when I upgraded to 12-RELEASE. Since the machine I run is headless that was a real dumpsterfire. 18:39:01 i went to upgrade a machine recently that's running along -CURRENT and there was some ACPI breakage for a period of time. I knew about it and still forgot to update my loader.efi. the machine was even worse because it was headless, no serial option and there was only one display in my house that it could drive without panicking at boot 18:40:12 and that display is a 55" or so TV on the other side of the house 18:40:23 Upgrading my machine at home is always a bit traumatic. Never have that feeling when doing things like that at work. I guess that my machine at home is one of one. If that breaks internet is gone and the wife and kids go mad. 18:41:41 What does vfs.zfs.dmu_offset_next_sync=0 do? 18:42:14 It currently has the value of 1 18:43:21 helps mitigate https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/issues/15526 until patch is out and ready at the cost of some holes being expanded iirc 18:43:24 Title: some copied files are corrupted (chunks replaced by zeros) · Issue #15526 · openzfs/zfs · GitHub 18:43:24 15526 – [NEW PORT] security/pgpgpg: a wrapper for GnuPG to emulate PGP 2.6 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=15526 18:43:55 it's a conservative option, if you want to play it safe 18:45:06 * thorre reading online 18:45:11 Does not look good 18:46:14 it's not a common corruption 18:46:56 vfs.zfs.dmu_offset_next_sync: 1 -> 0 18:47:14 Have changed it now, must read up a little more on what it actually does 18:55:15 When i run "zpool get all | grep feature@" it looks like block cloning is enabled 18:55:37 Is that something that I should disable for now? 18:55:51 yeah, but there's a sysctl to effectively disable it that should be flipped on (disabled) in 14.0 18:56:11 vfs.zfs.bclone_enabled 18:56:18 =0 18:56:59 s/on/off/ :-) 18:57:05 sysctl outputs "vfs.zfs.bclone_enabled: 0" 18:57:27 zpool states 18:57:29 zroot feature@block_cloning enabled local 18:58:01 yeah, 0 = disabled 19:02:37 I am no ZFS expert but to the best of my knowledge the block cloning is part of the copy-on-write design of zfs. 19:02:58 Guess that I have to scrub weekly instead of monthly now. 19:03:23 Is there any information on how common these corruptions are? 19:05:52 Hmmm, could it be that the zfs-pool supports block_cloning but the block_cloning is disabled in runtime via vfs.zfs.bclone_enabled=0 ? 19:07:59 thorre: there is no "root cause" yet, people have been able to confirm it happens.. the exact reason why.. still unknwon 19:08:20 https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/dont-enable-block-cloning-just-yet.91140/ 19:08:21 Title: ZFS - Don’t enable block cloning just yet. | The FreeBSD Forums 19:09:37 I saw that article. 19:09:57 Guess I need to pay extra attention to my scrub results. 19:10:32 Since it only is a home server there is not much activity on the disks. But for production this is some extra excitement. 19:10:36 and i have to write that down myself. "playing" with zfs and figure it is important.. to scrub 19:11:40 Scrubing is like flossing ones teeth. It keeps the rot away. 19:11:53 voy4g3r2: I don't think that is a correct characterization of the situation 19:12:27 there's at least two patches in flight to address the problem (when combined) 19:16:03 Indeed: I locally revision bumped php81-pecl-APCu, and now Nextcloud is working again. 19:52:53 I think I accidently removed some dot .files and cannot login to awesomevm. I am in shell now with no browser. Does anyone knows what the config file is? 19:54:40 its was some dot file in home dir 19:54:57 Beladona: This might be useful: https://epsi-rns.github.io/desktop/2019/06/15/awesome-overview.html 19:54:58 Title: Awesome WM - Overview 19:55:11 mason: no browser : ) 19:55:49 Beladona: It works in elinks. 19:55:54 I think it was some file having some GUI entry to run awesome on `startx`. That file was a .somefile in my home dir that was deleted. 19:55:59 and w3m 19:56:31 .xinitrc ? 19:56:32 Beladona: Then maybe "exec awesome" in .xsession 19:56:48 or whatever the binary's name is, exec'd from there 19:57:41 .xinitrc 19:58:19 echo "exec awesome" > .xinitrc 19:58:20 mason: yes. but are you sure its .xsession and not .xinitrc? 19:58:21 You use startx, and not a desktop manager? 19:58:25 Beladona: Yeah. 19:58:30 Unless you use startx. 19:58:40 I do `startx` always 19:58:48 Then it's .xinitrc 19:58:53 ok thanks. doing 20:00:50 it was .xinitrc and all that worked. I am back in UI. Thanks! 20:01:05 enjoy :) 20:03:07 Having lynx web browser available on a headless box can be a life saver, IMO. IIRC elinks and w3m work best from an xterm window on a running desktop, which usually ain't gonna be available on headless servers. 20:09:23 unixman_home, What issues did you get with elinks & w3m when run on a headless box? 20:11:12 parv, I don't recall. It's been a *long* time since I was having to pick a CLI web browser. TBH whatever was the problem back then may no longer be an issue. I've just been using lynx for years. 20:11:46 unixman_home, Ah. Thanks. Did you happen to try links2? 20:16:01 parv, I think I have. It's not like I have used CLI web browsers daily, weekly, or even monthly. It's been at least a year or more since I last needed one. It's one of those, when I *need* it I use it, things for me. I don't often find myself in that position. 20:20:48 The last time I recall using lynx I was in the DC, with a crash cart keyboard / mouse connected to a headless box that had lost M&C connectivity. I used lynx to connect to a vendor site and download a patch for their software running on that box. After that, I worked with network engineering to fix the M&C connection so the next poor admin would not have to go to the DC for patching that box. 20:22:15 unixman_home, What is "M&C", "monitor & control"? 20:24:02 Pretty much. I think we call it Management & Control, but basically it is the remote management interface built into a lot of server hardware that we connect to a dedicated network for that. 21:55:58 Does anyone here use the enlightenment desktop? I have a question: I'm on a fresh install, just started e and after the 'wizard' setup thingy, all I get is a black screen, it is "as if" the backlight went to 0 21:56:08 also is it really bad to mix ports and pkg installed programs? 21:56:17 I remember at one time it was not really a good idea, then it was considered 'ok' but now? 22:05:07 doing some tests with sockets, using old examples. https://bpa.st/2DIQ I am struggling to understand how to extract the IP from struct hostent . Any help is welcomed. 22:05:08 Title: View paste 2DIQ 22:06:28 back 22:06:41 AumShivaya: it's fine to mix ports and packages 22:09:26 uskerine: what is h_addr/ line 45 showing you ? 22:11:06 uskerine: You need to use inet_ntoa() 22:12:55 Haven't used E16/e17 in a long time. Sorry. mixing ports and packages is fine like rtprio stated. packages are just precompiled ports. 22:13:46 .. and you need to do some casting - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/15670713/using-gethostbyname 22:13:47 Title: c - Using gethostbyname - Stack Overflow 22:15:37 AumShivaya, Mixing ports & packages may not work in some cases if you would use non-default options for port building due to differing dependencies 22:16:07 "it's fine to mix ports and packages" comes with a fat caveat 22:20:47 uskerine, A snippet from one of my old programs that might help a little: https://bsd.to/ouWs 22:20:48 Title: dpaste/ouWs (C) 22:21:24 rtprio dh https://bpa.st/I4SQ 22:21:26 Title: View paste I4SQ 22:23:17 uskerine, inet_ntoa() returns a string not an unsigned. 22:23:46 so when I use p_server->h_addr as a struct in_addr pointer I get a decimal value which maches the IP (although it is read the opposite way) 22:24:08 What you say is the opposite way is the difference between big-endian and little-endian. 22:25:07 Most systems are little-endian these days. But networking came about when they were big-endian. 22:25:18 I'll go out on a limb and say all network protocols are serialized as big-endian bit streams. But Intel x86 systems are little-endian. 22:25:36 So data always needs to be converted from host ordering to network ordering on the way from the host to the network wire. 22:26:02 And all data needs to be converted from network ordering (bigendian) to host ordering (littleendian) on the way in from the wire to the host. 22:26:12 thanks :) 22:26:44 If you happen to be working on a natively big-endian system then the byteorder(3) macros/functions do nothing. But on a little endian system they flip the bits around. 22:27:39 for some reason I get a segmentation fault while trying to apply inet_ntoa 22:28:14 Can you use the returned char * directly as a parameter of printf using %s ? 22:28:25 Turn on all compiler warnings, re-read the man pages for every function, double check all of the types. 22:28:38 rwp: pretty much all old-school systems that are still around are now Bi-Endian, except for IBM's big iron 22:29:19 uskerine, Yes. I am doing this: sprintf(peername,"%s",inet_ntoa(peeraddr->sin_addr)); 22:30:10 meena, That's why I said I was going out on a limb. But general guidelines are useful for newcomers to go by. There will always be exceptions. 22:31:05 well i guess you could switch your aarch64 systems to Big Endian, if you enjoy pain 22:31:21 build your own exceptions! 22:33:14 I am sure you are familiar meena with the classic "ON HOLY WARS AND A PLEA FOR PEACE" by Danny Cohen but uskerine should read it https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien137.txt 22:38:19 rwp: I probably am and it's been too long, but either way, I don't remember (much these days) 22:40:28 It's a fun read and if dealing with endianness such as the byteorder(3) macros then still applicable too. But otherwise the machines it references are all museum pieces now. Machines prior to 1980. 22:44:21 A header was missing 22:44:38 and inet_ntoa was going ballistic, I reduced the problem to just getting the IP address of www.yahoo.com 22:44:58 normally I do not cease until I get no warnings, but this time I was not reading them 22:46:28 Missing header files will mean missing prototypes. If warnings are enabled then these will be caught at that point. And the man pages always list what header files are needed. 22:46:31 I am aware on the little endian big endian, and that network is big endian 22:47:13 But don't go crazy adding every header file to every file thinking to avoid not having some needed header file. That way is considered bad as it slows things down. 22:47:41 I once had a complain from a junior because my software was assuming that the architecture was little endian. I was wondering where he wanted to compile that thing in 2023 as everything that you put in a data center is little endian. 22:47:48 Thompson apparently had such an issue with it at Google that in Go-lang it is an error to include a header that is not used in the compilation unit. 22:48:11 Yes go-lang is very strict on that end, same for unused variables 22:48:37 I normally like to know which header is for what function, but with sockets it seems that you need several headers at once 22:49:12 Networking will always require several headers all together. True. 22:49:37 I am trying to make peaces with sockets, and learn them in a reasonable proper way 22:49:55 Excellent! It's useful. 23:04:24 rwp: to be fair, on Plan-9, you can't include header files more than once, and that makes for a lot, and i mean, a lot faster compile times 23:04:56 So it's not just unused crap, it's also multiple incudes of the same thing 23:05:19 Agreed. I have worked on projects where there were massive lists of includes and one of the problems is that it kills incremental builds. Change anything and everything becomes out of date.