13:44:20 <weust> with Boot Environments being cloned during a freebsd-update, am I right I should want the last created clone to be Active? Because right now my Active (default) is from mid-2020 whlie the newest is of today
13:52:59 <weust> Using zfs destroy -nrv on each clone shows there is nothing in them, even though there is space alocated, up to 962M
13:57:53 <CmdLnKid> weust, you realize -n is a no-op though right ?
13:59:28 <weust> CmdLnKid: yes, I was following this: https://dan.langille.org/2021/04/15/deleting-old-freebsd-boot-environments/ which mentions a dry-run using -n.
13:59:29 <VimDiesel> Title: Deleting old FreeBSD boot environments – Dan Langille's Other Diary
14:05:05 <jwmaag> weust: I'm pretty sure it makes changes to the current dataset/BE and creates those snapshots as a means to get back before the changes
14:09:07 <jwmaag> having to call bectl activate after every call to freebsd-update would be annoying
14:27:48 <CmdLnKid> still on root with ufs here. commonly writable areas for me are mounted via a dataset from a seperate disk
14:28:44 <CmdLnKid> no bectl here. no need for it tho it would be nice for critical servers
14:29:43 <CmdLnKid> i find ufs easier to recover
14:30:04 <CmdLnKid> tho i can't think of one time in the last 10 years ive had to do so
14:37:13 <weust> OK, but is there some kind of rotation where it cleans up after x amount or something? Because only adding and taking up space doesn't sound too good either.
14:37:37 <weust> I feel a guide on this and how to deal with it is missing, at least I can't find it. Only on how to remove them.
14:38:20 <CmdLnKid> that space can free when its needed. if you need confirmation of space removal "reboot" itll come up clean after
14:39:02 <CmdLnKid> a couple sync calls or a zpool scrup may do it as well
14:39:31 <CmdLnKid> if it doesn't then i would say there still has to be something there somewhere
14:39:47 <rtprio> weust: do you have old snapshots taking up space?
14:40:08 <weust> Let me paste that on pastebin. one sec
14:40:14 <CmdLnKid> inspect zfs list -t snap
14:40:23 <weust> https://bsd.to/BZLg
14:40:24 <VimDiesel> Title: dpaste/BZLg (Plain Text)
14:41:06 <weust> https://bsd.to/iWs1
14:41:07 <VimDiesel> Title: dpaste/iWs1 (Plain Text)
14:41:13 <weust> same output, kinda
14:41:37 <weust> nvm de icinga setup of course
14:41:43 <CmdLnKid> so you do have snapshots sitting around
14:41:57 <CmdLnKid> that would be your goal
14:42:09 <CmdLnKid> just remove em and youll see a diff results
14:42:28 <CmdLnKid> they look like automated snapshots
14:43:19 <weust> They are automated. Created during a freebsd-update
14:43:32 <CmdLnKid> 962M was approximately what you were seeing un'freed
14:45:04 <weust> So that is wasted space right now, or not?
14:45:12 <CmdLnKid> the BE was claiming zero because it was removing exactly what it was in control of
14:45:44 <CmdLnKid> not if you zfs destroy zroot/ROOT/default@2022-10-29-17:42:28-0
14:45:49 <CmdLnKid> etc... etc...
14:46:31 <weust> but without using -R it will shows that it cannot destroy the snapshot: snapshot has dependent clones
14:46:54 <CmdLnKid> is it listed in bectl list -a ?
14:47:06 <CmdLnKid> if it is destroy it there
14:47:52 <jwmaag> weust: its only "wasted" if you never intend on going back
14:47:54 <CmdLnKid> @channel isn't there a bectl maintenance facility in ports ? maybe included ?
14:48:09 <weust> In my first pastebin link I would say so? zfs list -t snapshot -o name,clones -r zroot/ROOT shows this too
14:48:16 <jwmaag> bectl destroy can remove the environments and the snapshot
14:48:21 <weust> https://bsd.to/zdt6
14:48:22 <VimDiesel> Title: dpaste/zdt6 (Plain Text)
14:48:26 <weust> ah ok
14:48:52 <CmdLnKid> yeah
14:49:26 <weust> So, to destroy the oldest I would do: bectl destroy -o 13.1-RELEASE-p2_2023-03-16_201934
14:49:59 <CmdLnKid> personally i prefer creating snapshots in unix time and calculating ... "is older than" and automatically removing them
14:50:23 <CmdLnKid> if a systems been running for 14 days then i don't need any older snapshots
14:50:27 <weust> blame that on the one that build that into freebsd-update ;-)
14:50:41 <jwmaag> i'm not even sure if you need the -o but sure
14:50:59 <weust> the -o comes from the website I mentioned earlier
14:51:11 <CmdLnKid> weust, pretty sure that behavior cam from opensolaris bectl
14:51:17 <CmdLnKid> we followed
14:51:25 <jwmaag> you mean beadm
14:51:26 <weust> aah
14:51:29 <CmdLnKid> yes
14:52:05 <weust> jwmaag: https://dan.langille.org/2021/04/15/deleting-old-freebsd-boot-environments/ shows bectl destroy -o. that's all I've got
14:52:07 <VimDiesel> Title: Deleting old FreeBSD boot environments – Dan Langille's Other Diary
14:52:43 <weust> But, I know my server boots fine, so I can destroy all except default, right?
14:53:04 <CmdLnKid> right
14:53:04 <weust> or perhaps leave the last one from today
14:53:15 <CmdLnKid> you can do that too
14:53:34 <CmdLnKid> unless you are dying for space ...
14:53:54 <CmdLnKid> that in itself is really uncommon these days
14:54:52 <weust> Home server. zroot has 22G in use of 185G. space it not an issue.
14:55:50 <weust> Like I said, I am missing som documentation on how to handle this. It's cool that it's done, but only taking up space isn't imo.
14:55:57 <weust> assuming freeb
14:56:11 <weust> assuming freebsd-update doesn't handle it itself, which I doubt it does atm.
14:56:46 <yuripv> it doesn't and it shouldn't
14:56:48 <CmdLnKid> no thats not up to that utility
14:57:14 <CmdLnKid> in a bsd way of thinking that would be hazordous
14:57:50 <CmdLnKid> unless you feel like creating something that creates a record of previous recorded snapshots
14:58:15 <CmdLnKid> but specifically thats for backup tools
14:58:38 <weust> OK. Then I am missing a part in the documentation that mentions what to do after an upgrade. maintenance thing. at least to check it out, etc.
14:59:12 <CmdLnKid> that might be a worthwhile contribution to the documentation
14:59:13 <weust> anyway, I will write it down in my own notes
14:59:41 <CmdLnKid> when you ... freebsd-update --- keep in mind this is what happens and you may want to remove them
14:59:52 <weust> awareness would be the better term, perhaps. know it's being done, know space is being used.
15:00:01 <weust> yes
15:00:37 <weust> now it just tells you to do a install after a upgrade/fetch, reboot and run install again. that's it.
15:00:44 <CmdLnKid> haven't read the man pages in depth so those should definately be considered
15:01:09 <CmdLnKid> see also sections may be needed
15:01:32 <CmdLnKid> or examples
15:02:02 <weust> yeah. right now man freebsd-update doesn't mention it at all.
15:03:25 <CmdLnKid> pin the contributors with committers lines in git/svn [blame]
15:03:34 <weust> I did read in https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/zfs-how-to-properly-remove-unnecessary-snapshots-and-not-damage-data.85436/ that you can set an option in freebsd-update.conf. CreateBootEnv no" to precent automatic creation of boot environments.
15:03:36 <VimDiesel> Title: ZFS: How to properly remove unnecessary snapshots and not damage data? | The FreeBSD Forums
15:03:36 <CmdLnKid> "with suggestions"
15:03:43 <weust> will do
15:06:36 <CmdLnKid> ooooh that thread
15:06:41 <CmdLnKid> sheeesh
15:06:54 <weust> hehe
15:07:16 <CmdLnKid> no dougbt you are using zfs on root FFS
15:07:32 <CmdLnKid> best laugh ive had today
15:07:46 <weust> well, I did mention that several times? my pastebins showed it.
15:08:11 <CmdLnKid> lol yeah assumptions... seem to be a problem there
15:08:25 <CmdLnKid> gotta verify
15:09:19 <weust> Only my OPNsense on my thin client is running UFS atm. The new OPNsense server is running ZFS as well. should swap them this weekend.
15:09:48 * CmdLnKid high fives weust for opnsense
15:10:07 <CmdLnKid> rather than pfsense
15:10:10 <weust> Been using that since very early 2015
15:11:01 <weust> yeah, was fed up with the forums there. very toxic because of a certain individual. went to OPNsense it was nice and relaxed. happy ever since.
15:11:05 <CmdLnKid> yeah used to be involved with a pro php dev, he at one point pointed out all the problems with pfsense and said he'd rather be running opnsense
15:11:20 <CmdLnKid> that was my changing point
15:13:34 <CmdLnKid> i use both now as pfsense being my backup firewall in the most basic sense if there is a problem not fixed as fast as it probably should be ill fall back on pfsense until its fixed
15:14:13 <CmdLnKid> eggs ==> baskets and all that BS
15:14:58 <weust> both work fine for what they do. but knowing the history on why opnsense was made and the crap they got, which was insane, I stay away from pfsense for that reason.
15:15:26 <CmdLnKid> yep
15:15:50 <CmdLnKid> just shows what a corp influence can have on a project
15:17:03 <weust> yeah, but also especially that one person. and some fanboy on twitter at the time. that guy was nuts.
15:17:21 <weust> his bio mentioned he was there to disprove anything opnsense did. anything.
15:17:32 <CmdLnKid> ignorance is bliss
15:17:51 <weust> yup
15:22:11 <weust> need to head out. thanks for the help once again, everyone.
15:22:40 <CmdLnKid> have a good one man
19:34:12 <polyex> are jails only for daemons or can we put a single command in a jail that we want to run more locked down?
19:35:11 <dkeav> yes
19:35:43 <polyex> ?
19:35:51 <dkeav> you can do both
19:36:05 <polyex> ty!
20:10:01 <debdrup> they sometimes get called service jails if they're just for a single command
20:10:38 <debdrup> typically you'd want to build something statically, so that there's only a single file in the jails filesystem that needs to be run without any sort of dynamic libraries
20:49:44 <polyex> why call it a service jail when it's not persistent like a daemon is? isn't daemon synonymous with service on other OS's?
20:53:12 <kevans> it's as persistent as the command (perhaps a daemon) it's running
20:57:31 <RhodiumToad> fair amount of stuff doesn't work well with static linking
20:59:25 <RhodiumToad> kevans: who can I interest in my automount bug, which I would argue has at least mild security implications (but not enough that I made it private)
20:59:56 <RhodiumToad> #272446 / D40961
21:01:25 <RhodiumToad> (the security impact is that it arbitrarily turns off important flags like "readonly", "nosuid", "noexec")
21:03:49 <kevans> hmm
21:06:54 <kevans> trasz would also have been a good candidate, but I think he's been largely not around as of late-ish
21:07:27 <otis> yeah, almost all commits were by trasz, one by rew
21:16:07 <debdrup> polyex: no idea of the etymology, just giving something to use as a keyword
21:16:42 <debdrup> kevans: yeah the last time i heard from trasz was when he released me from my mentorship
21:45:42 <meena> Linux uses /proc/<pid>/environ to get the a process Environment. How can we do that on FreeBSD?
21:46:08 <RhodiumToad> procstat has an option for it, but iirc it relies on the process not having clobbered it
21:50:57 <rtprio> Mem: 2502M Active, 53M Inact, 1491M Wired, 955M Buf, 277G Free
21:51:02 <rtprio> what a satisfying upgrade
21:54:04 <meena> RhodiumToad: cool, thank you
21:58:24 <otis> meena: i even introduced "penv", "pargs" and "pwdx" shortcuts
21:58:35 <otis> all in /usr/bin
21:58:46 <meena> otis: how long have we had --libxo in procstat?
21:59:15 <otis> meena: since 2015
22:04:47 <meena> cool
22:06:06 <polyex> libxo is so cool
22:25:07 <polyex> to run a command in a service jail we use jexec right?
22:26:03 <nimaje> you could also have it defined in jails.conf
22:54:02 <polyex> the base jails that reuse userland, are they reusing the host userland or a jail's userland?