03:45:39 i'm guessing no, but is there any tool that aids in moving the contents of an OS drive to a new one? like boot from USB, run magic tool to archive the OS drive, remove drive, plug in new one, magic tool restores to new drive? 03:48:22 i installed freebsd to a very old, small nvme drive to experiment with it. i wasn't expecting to make it my primary OS, but here i am :) 03:52:17 markmcb: ZFS eases that kind of thing significantly. 04:02:34 mason: yeah, i was thinking from the usb boot i could zfs send the existing install to a network drive, pop in the new drive, let the installer do the partition setup, then zfs receive the backup (or something to that effect) 05:21:17 that is basically it, and installing the bootloader 06:42:47 hey 06:43:45 any way with rc(8) to restart daemons that depend on another daemon? for instance, I have a 'nitter' script in local rc.d depending on the 'redis' script 06:44:27 and also there's the issue with having to make scripts like 'redis_pre' or 'tor_pre' that set up ramdisks, etc before the stock, unmodified script is invoked, as per rcorder(8) 07:18:44 sthalik: i would just modify the stock rc scripts to include pre_start / post_stop. 07:19:59 (actually, i would rather burn all of rc down rc write a single line of shell, but that's a different story) 07:25:54 daemon(8) isn't that bad actually 07:25:59 even without pid files 07:33:45 sthalik: true. daemon is class. but we don't have dependency chains in daemon, and we should keep it that way 07:36:40 the good news is: living in etc, if you modify any rc scripts, pkg won't just overwrite them on an upgrade 07:37:46 with pkg base, pkg will overwrite them 07:38:13 rc scripts are not considered as config files aka no 3 way merge 07:47:17 bapt: but just in Base, right? 07:47:28 pkg uses 3-way merge? 07:47:30 that's nice 07:48:17 sthalik: yes pkg uses 3-way merge for files marked as config (only used for pkgbase) 07:48:37 meena: for ports it is the same it will overwrite them 07:49:21 am the 07:49:48 al the more reason to burn rc sooner rather later 07:50:09 why ? 07:53:20 bapt: i find it very inadequate for a modern Unix 07:53:33 how so ? 07:53:52 what do you miss? 07:54:35 (I know many flaws of rc(8) and I have even written my own alternatives 10 years ago), but I am always curious of what people have in mind when they claim that 07:56:12 bapt: i got some arguments summarised here, https://scratchpad.pkgbase.live/Tn-dtb8OT--CttN1Djn8lw# 07:56:13 Title: jrc: Principles - HedgeDoc 07:57:32 so you want to address "missing features" more than flaws from what I am reading 07:58:00 which mean just providing jrc along with rc will just work not need to replace it in this case 07:58:24 I have a writeup of that, too, actually 07:59:00 https://github.com/freebsd/meetings/tree/master/supervision 07:59:01 Title: meetings/supervision at master · freebsd/meetings · GitHub 07:59:14 flaws being racy natures of pid, relying on pidfiles, the restart being unreliable with "upgrade" of the rc file 07:59:56 oh i definitely wanna get rid of pid files 08:01:28 a process can excapt supervision on any of the tools in base easily and escape process tracking entirely 08:01:30 I've been looking for an adequate API for years now. we think that login classes might be good enough, but I haven't had time to explore it fully 08:11:16 basically, i want something like Solaris contract(5) https://www.illumos.org/man/5/contract (because Linux groups is… a bit too much) something that can be orthogonal to jail(2) 08:11:18 Title: illumos: manual page: contract.5 08:14:04 port it? 08:18:17 yuripv: that's an option, but I would rather see if something organic can appear from existing BSD APIs 08:37:16 meena: I was trying to bait them into revealing exactly that. 08:38:49 sthalik: what's leading you to need to restart an entire dependency chain? 08:39:16 debdrup, nitter breaks silently on redis restart 08:39:28 sthalik: seems like it'd be better to fix that ;) 08:39:37 well, it's written in nim 08:39:47 Time to learn nim then! :P 08:40:01 Or find someone willing to work on it for you 08:41:20 I would imagine that if you're dealing with it, you're probably not the only person. 09:02:34 debdrup: bait who into revealing what? huh? 09:03:06 meena: the cryptocurrency/AI person 09:04:25 the thing that could revolutionise the world? 09:05:35 it's secret, actually (but I'll tell you anyway if you ask me) 09:25:40 * RhodiumToad grumbles at bugs that don't reproduce easily 09:26:47 * RhodiumToad is resorting to leaving ktrace enabled on automountd and its spawn for long periods 09:35:42 RhodiumToad: is it time for quickcheck yet? 09:36:15 ? 09:38:44 this isn't a bug that could be reproduced by simple tests 12:38:01 "yaay" heisenbugs. 14:28:06 RhodiumToad: QuickCheck isn't just a simple test, it's thousands or hundred thousands of simple tests, but, yeah, you'd have to write the basic structure, and not all code lends itself to this kind of testing 14:28:40 this is some weird interaction between a shell script (special_media) and automountd 14:29:00 i just realised, sthalik was running nitter. what good is running nitter these days when you can't really access anything anymore on twitter without an account? 14:29:15 meena, they fixed it 14:29:55 twitter's "you have to log in to read" lasted like 2 days before being reverted 14:31:12 turns out it was bad idea???? who could possibly have predicted this 14:31:15 i can see no replies here, https://twitter.com/FractalEcho/status/1681632336771796992 - and i can't believe that not dozens of people wouldn't really with "same lol" or "yikes" to this 14:31:16 Title: Rua M. Williams on Twitter: "This is not an email I ever expected to receive or send. https://t.co/5IBBhlvKcQ" / Twitter 14:31:40 meena, https://nitter.misaki.pl/FractalEcho/status/1681632336771796992 14:31:41 Title: Rua M. Williams (@FractalEcho): "This is not an email I ever expected to receive or send." | nitter 14:35:20 sthalik: thanks 15:51:52 "nitter" isn't really federated in the way mastodon is; every instance stands on its own 16:34:37 twitter broke showing tweets with context 16:34:48 unless youre.logged in i think? 17:07:25 rtprio: indeed. didn't realise nitter still shows them 17:48:58 anyone else see that download/upload rates in ports btop seem to be reversed ? or am i seeing things ? 17:50:01 no way im uploading at 20Mbps when im capped at 10 17:50:46 maybe im reading it wrong but the up symbol is higher than the down symbol 17:52:24 feeling like this is a dislexic programming issue 17:53:07 just trying to narrow this down 18:03:50 nvm streaming to the tv... was being to lazy and not pulling up wireshark 18:04:33 screen sharing threw me off 18:10:15 CmdLnKid: Haha. 18:57:31 systat in DragonFlyBSD has both a sensors display, as well as a netbw display, that I'd absolutely love to have in FreeBSD (though the first requires a fair about of modification, as FreeBSD would need to have a sensors framework first) 19:07:02 got a patch ? ;) but in all seriousness that would be pretty cool 19:42:45 I'm going to try asking this again to see if I get any tips: I have some extra machines lying around and I'm interested in PXE booting them into FreeBSD and Linux variants (depending on the need). Are there any good web UI-based tools you all might recommend which could run out of a jail to make it easy to boot machines with a particular image?. I'm kind of interested in something similar to 19:42:48 Ganeti but for booting real machines rather than VMs 19:44:38 debdrup: we have no sensors framework?? 20:02:41 is it possible to encode permissions, ownership, chflags, etc, in tar separate from actual input files? 20:03:04 (trying to find ways to make rootless building easier) 20:03:07 how do you mean? 20:03:44 it actually is possible with libarchive to generate entirely synthetic metadata or even data for tar files and other archives 20:04:13 but do we have a tool in Base which can do that? 20:04:20 afaik there's no easy tool for it, yet 20:05:30 I've pondered making a lua binding for libarchive 20:05:58 I already did a guile binding, so I have some experience 20:07:46 rtyler: I'm surprised ganeti cannot be used with real machines 20:09:56 meena: it could be done with a "manifest" file in pkg describing all that (i don't know if pkg actually supports it, just an idea from at least pkg5 in illumos) 20:22:42 rtyler: no guis that i know of; netbooting freebsd can have a lot of options 20:22:54 rtyler: maybe cobbler could help with this 20:23:57 meena: doesn't mtree include most of those things? 20:25:02 meena: as far as I am aware ganeti doesn't do anything with the provisioning of the instances which VMs run on top of, once you have that base layer of things that do xen/kvm, it takes over from there 20:25:24 I was planning to port ganeti to freebsd once but lost interest because haskell... though it looks like it's mostly python these days 20:25:40 yeah, we used cobbler with ganeti at our institution 20:26:06 i mean, it's just a fancy dhcpd re-writer and some icing 20:26:31 yeah, cobbler could sit at the bottom here I suppose. I was hoping to stay a lot more in FreeBSD land however 20:30:14 I remember using cobbler for something… long ago 20:30:58 * kevans begins drooling at the mention of cobbler 20:31:28 peach and/or apple prepared in a dutch oven is spectacular 20:37:50 summer time is peach cobbler time :D 20:39:09 Mungo Jerry! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvUQcnfwUUM 20:39:10 Title: Mungo Jerry - In The Summertime ORIGINAL 1970 - YouTube 20:59:42 hello I want to make it so that python works 20:59:48 right now I type python3 20:59:55 is there a way to do this I forget 21:00:41 I did it on my other computer manipulated the versions 21:00:57 sixpiece: python3 is provided by the package python3, which is just a symlink 21:01:23 it's not more than that something in the etc? 21:01:37 sixpiece: more likely in /usr/local/bin 21:02:59 ok so I just create another one for python and that's all? 21:03:21 sixpiece: what are you trying to accomplish? what's going wrong right now? and what have you tried to mitigate it? 21:03:53 while I'm asking stupid questions, anybody running GitHub Self-hosted runners on FreeBSD? 21:04:22 sixpiece, Create the symbolic link in ~/bin to $LOCALBASE/python3; put ~/bin in PATH; rehash (if applicable); done 21:04:37 I think that's it I am just setting up the virtual environment and it's my habit to type python I thought it was more complicated than that , thank you 21:05:39 sixpiece, Right in that case "activate" (in case of "venv") may be what you are looking for 21:08:20 what does rehash do? 21:08:24 how do you rehash 21:08:26 ? 21:08:29 just type it 21:08:45 :) 21:08:54 sixpiece, Do check the doc for whatever you use to set up an virtual environment to pollute PATH 21:09:39 sixpiece: Best docs I'm seeing are in the csh man page. 21:10:44 sixpiece, In case of "zsh", "rehash" remakes its list of the commands available in "$PATH" 21:11:42 thank you parv mason meena 21:11:57 parv: I think that's the case everywhere it's implemented. 21:12:14 mason, Hey, just CYA 21:12:37 mission accomplished for now and I appreciate your help to familiarize me with these concepts 21:12:45 there's a python3 meta-package to install the symlink for you 21:12:51 s/Y/My/ 21:14:39 parv: Yeah, that's a reasonable stance actually. 21:15:06 If this is Python (makes sign against evil) virtual environments are probably the same way to go. 21:15:10 sixpiece: ^ 21:15:18 Oh, parv already covered that. 21:15:37 sixpiece: If you use a venv activate, remember that you source it into your current running shell. 21:15:56 So... . foo/bin/activate 21:20:32 thank you mason yes I have that I have django installed now 21:20:42 cool 21:20:59 I'm having to use this stuff for automated testing, so it's freshly on my mind. 21:21:06 Not a Python fan though. 21:21:33 I'm not sure why I picked python but I guess I started it so I should at least get my project done 21:22:15 * meena regularly writes python, but is taking a short detour: https://cathode.church/@meena/110737597717012884 21:24:21 http://bash.org/?400459 (i couldn't miss the opportunity) 21:24:22 Title: QDB: Quote #400459 21:24:44 :-) 21:34:33 thank you going to head out for a walk 21:34:42 have a good day au revoir 21:34:51 just get some sun etc.. 21:44:18 meena: not in the sense that there's an api through which one can access all available sensors; the best we got is being some sysctl values which uses coretemp/amdtemp. The main issue is the huge amount of lift-up in order to access even a minor amount of the sensors; look at librehardwaremonitor as an example of everything that needs to be done 21:45:00 debdrup: and dragonfly has such a thing? 21:45:23 and it's worth noting that even if lhm ships as a library, it's written in c# 21:45:30 iirc we had something (gsoc work?) in '00s, but it didn't work for some reason 21:46:22 so it's not like we can just yoink it even if the code is mozillas public license (which at least nominally should be able to get it into base, with approval by core) 21:46:51 yuripv: it fell on its face because of the amount of undocumented APIs that such a thing needs to handle 21:47:16 https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/cvs-src/2007-October/082398.html 21:47:17 Title: cvs commit: src/etc Makefile sensorsd.conf src/etc/defaults rc.conf src/etc/rc.d Makefile sensorsd src/lib/libc/gen sysctl.3 src/sbin/sysctl sysctl.8 sysctl.c src/share/man/man5 rc.conf.5 src/share/man/man9 Makefile sensor_attach.9 src/sys/conf files ... 21:47:47 <3 phk 21:50:35 for example, motherboard fan sensors - you'd think that'd be simple, because it's all superio, right? 21:51:56 well, there's almost 60 different chips, and a substancial amount of them have their own API 21:53:38 and if it's on an LPC bus, there's at least 20 more 21:54:33 kudos to the lhm folks, but i can't envision anyone doing that without being the only thing they work on 21:56:02 "is the road that leads to things like SYSV IPC" lol 22:19:04 * RhodiumToad mutters that sysv ipc isn't _all_ bad. 22:56:44 Does any of you use FreeBSD at Yandex Cloud? 23:13:47 tmic: do they have a free tier? 23:14:20 also, do they use cloud-init? 23:14:29 should i be worrying about supporting them? 23:14:32 Meena https://cloud.yandex.com/en/docs/billing/concepts/trial-period 23:14:34 Title: Trial period for new clients | Yandex Cloud - Documentation 23:15:01 Meena worrying about what? 23:15:18 tmic: i'm the main FreeBSD developer on the cloud-init project 23:15:43 i'm also very tired and should goto sleep 23:15:53 Go sleep then :) 23:16:15 Let me check that cloud-init 23:16:29 https://cloud.yandex.com/en/docs/compute/operations/image-create/custom-image looks like they just use ec2 23:16:31 Title: Preparing your disk image | Yandex Cloud - Documentation 23:16:35 should work! 23:16:54 (should work as well as Vultr does.) 23:17:28 right, sleep. 23:18:25 Meena tomorrow let me know about it 23:19:41 tomorrow is another Mina does Childcare day because kiddo refuses to goto summer camp… so… it might be another (late? after?)noon before I get to my laptop. 23:21:06 Tomorrow or after tomorrow, life is eternal, can be at FreeBSD 80 version :P 23:22:15 * meena stares at her code… 23:22:16 tmic: rough estimate of when my code will be released 23:22:24 hello! i'd like to setup a freebsd server with zfs with the ability to let users have their own encrypted folders. with encrytped datasets, this seems possible - but I want the user to be able to remotely login, decrypt and mount their dataset, and also be able to umount the location as well. but said user shouldn't be able to do this to any other dataset. am I asking something reasonable here? 23:25:37 Meena, it seems cloud-init is used by Yandex. Cloud-init need to be compatible to things work? 23:26:57 meena: careful, code will stare back sometimes 23:27:52 tmic: makes things easier (for cloud providers) 23:28:25 it means they only have to support one way of provisioning and customising images 23:31:07 What they do if I understood correctly? 23:31:20 Btw, https://freebsdfoundation.org/project/freebsd-as-a-tier-i-cloud-init-platform/ :) 23:31:21 Title: FreeBSD as a Tier I cloud-init Platform – FreeBSD Foundation 23:31:57 yes, that's me 23:32:46 this, https://cathode.church/@meena/110737597717012884 is also me 23:32:48 Title: Mina: "new people have discovered and are boosting this …" - Cathode Church 23:34:20 So if I understood correctly, if cloud-init is ported to FBSD, whatever provider support it, FBSD will just work? 23:34:39 yes 23:34:54 Oh. 23:35:05 i haven't tested yandex yet, but if its just ec2, it should work out fine 23:37:25 I thought I just needed to uploaded the vm image 23:40:35 You shoul port it to minix after ;) 23:41:17 they don't provide FreeBSD images themselves? 23:42:16 https://cloud.yandex.com/en/marketplace/products/opennix/freebsd they do 23:42:18 Meena nop 23:42:18 Title: FreeBSD | Yandex Cloud - Marketplace 23:42:52 That are images from the "marketplace" inside 23:43:15 Which has a price... 23:43:34 hrmm 23:43:56 from $73.87 / per month 23:44:47 the aws marketplace has freebsd images, provided by the a freebsd committer, 23:45:14 Sure 23:45:27 This is from a private company 23:45:27 (and right now, you can't use them on the free tier, because they don't support UEFI yet) 23:45:39 i thought he fixed that recently? 23:45:52 At aws? 23:45:52 they added a new mumble mumble that lets you specify uefi-preferred 23:46:22 https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/release?id=bcf9147144f3499976a623f92712ecd0aca71912 23:46:23 Title: src - FreeBSD source tree 23:46:32 ("EC2: Default to "uefi-preferred" boot mode 23:46:41 kevans: but it's not out in a release yet 23:46:55 RELEASE, 23:47:17 it's at least in stable/13 and main :-) 23:49:28 if we wanted mere mortals to use those, we'd give them freebsd-update / PkgBase 23:50:39 is this why re@ won't touch PkgBase? because suddenly we'd have a million STABLE / CURRENT users? 23:52:38 Cloud-init is a component that can be found at FBSD vm image? 23:55:20 not the standard image you download from freebsd.org 23:56:16 No? 23:56:20 Hum 23:57:03 So how the whole process works? 23:57:06 tmic: but you can start with that, abs see how it works, and if it works well enough, you can always Customize the image locally and then re upload it 23:58:19 Why i want to customize? I have in mind I just need to boot the minimal image and connect by vnc and voila