03:42:31 <grahamperrin> > The only officially supported communication medium we have is mailing lists, and there's several good reasons for that.
03:42:32 <grahamperrin> More things that are official: <https://www.freebsd.org/community/>
03:42:33 <VimDiesel> Title: Community | The FreeBSD Project
03:43:32 <grahamperrin> The mailing lists are quite sucky, but that's a conversation for another day. A day thirty years from now, if we're unlucky.
03:46:05 <grahamperrin> > Discord has a nice web client
03:46:06 <grahamperrin> Nice, but buggy. <https://discord.com/channels/727023752348434432/757543661058654269/1123297250899148840> for example.
03:46:07 <VimDiesel> Title: Discord
06:42:27 <grahamperrin> > uh.. FreeBSD doesn't *have* block devices
06:42:27 <grahamperrin> Koston: bug 272262
06:42:29 <VimDiesel> 272262 – sysutils/lsblk: avoid the phrase 'block device' https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=272262
06:46:33 <RhodiumToad> well, it doesn't have them in the sense of traditional block vs. character devices
06:46:41 <RhodiumToad> but there is still a distinction
06:47:04 <Koston> grahamperrin: cheers! that's probably going to be a bit tricky to navigate, since the difference between character vs. block device is not relevant (or interesting) for most people
06:56:54 <RhodiumToad> one distinction that was apparently re-introduced is the distinction between disk-like devices which are geom providers and ones which are not
06:57:13 <RhodiumToad> the only ones that are not that I know of offhand are zfs zvols in "dev" mode
06:59:00 <grahamperrin> Thanks, feel free to make .patch files and/or pull requests.
07:00:02 <grahamperrin> I refrained, because I don't know enough about the distinctions to sanely make the four/five editions.
07:00:16 <grahamperrin> Is it enough to simply say 'devices'?
07:01:25 <Koston> swap block -> disk and lsblk -> lsdsk with symlink lsblk -> lsdsk ?
07:03:00 <Koston> I'm not up to date on fbsd development since quite a while though, so I can't say for sure what the best approach would be
07:03:14 <RhodiumToad> this lsblk thing (which I have not used) seems to have some omissions
07:07:17 <RhodiumToad> for I in ada da mmcsd md vtbd   <-- isn't this missing at least nvd and nda ?
07:16:12 <rtprio> block devices were removed back in ...4.x days? maybe 5?
07:16:18 <RhodiumToad> 5.0
07:16:36 <RhodiumToad> see man 4 intro  under "historical notes"
07:17:18 <RhodiumToad> when rewriting that I didn't go into great detail given that it's only meant to be an overview
07:17:37 <rtprio> good times
07:17:53 <RhodiumToad> "block" (buffered) devices were vestigial even in 4.x and before, though
07:18:37 <RhodiumToad> i.e. mounted filesystems didn't use the buffering, but rather used the VM system instead
07:18:57 <RhodiumToad> the block-device buffer pool was small and mostly unused
07:19:19 <RhodiumToad> (iirc)
07:30:28 <Koston> https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/?h=releng/4.8&id=dfbdd7d2b30c1ca17f6cf15f5fd5f12d9f15df64
07:30:30 <VimDiesel> Title: src - FreeBSD source tree
10:03:25 <cpet> grahamperrin: it's been 30 years already
10:59:26 <yuripv> oh, https://reviews.freebsd.org/D40565
10:59:27 <VimDiesel> Title: ⚙ D40565 Remove toor backup account
11:44:56 <cpet> Nice let's see how many people object to that
11:46:42 <cpet> In my 26 years never have I ever used that or used a service that used it
11:47:43 <Koston> cpet: same
11:49:45 <cpet> Now of we could get rid of all the firewalls and stick to just one like the other bsds
11:50:10 <Koston> no
11:51:04 <Koston> that would be a very poor career move
12:05:14 <yuripv> do we get to vote which one?
12:09:52 <cpet> No
12:10:11 <meena> yuripv: see, was gonna say that. not if cpet has anything to say, and they do
12:10:24 <cpet> At a minimum ipf that shit has been abandoned for a while
12:11:26 <cpet> yuripv: sorry please redirect that to #freebsd-firewalls so we don't upset the meena
12:12:03 <cpet> yuripv: any reason behind the toor thing
12:13:20 <cpet> Need to remember how much postmaster was a pain after this openssl update
12:13:46 <cpet> Or wait until latest pkgs get rebuilt
12:15:00 <meena> "/etc/master.passwd was added in 1bf9d5d9518e with a toor account (and disabled by default in 9f808f21bf4b). It originally used a different shell (sh) which provided a backup in case the main root account's shell (csh) was broken. Root's default shell is now sh so toor no longer serves this purpose.
12:15:00 <meena> Even if disabled by default the existence of an extra superuser account may be alarming to administrators and to security auditing systems. Just remove it by default. Sysadmins who wish to have a second superuser account can add one."
12:18:14 <alian5687> meena: I sometimes manually edit /etc/passwd and set another account with uid 0 ...
12:18:53 <cpet> why do you need two ? Should be using sudo
12:19:15 <cpet> Been removing that toor account ever since I felt the need for 2 was not required
12:19:41 <cpet> Probably way before meena knew what freebsd was
12:23:25 <meena> cpet: i've been using FreeBSD since about 2010, when I was added as committer to Apache httpd. One of my first acts as Apache Traffic Server committer was porting it to clang, Solaris and FreeBSD. I have been contributing to FreeBSD since about 2017.
12:24:00 <meena> none of that means that I'm particularly good at any of what I do… i… just… keep doing it.
12:24:17 <cpet> Yeah thought so
12:25:29 <yuripv> doing is what matters
12:34:58 <debdrup> cpet: I've used toor many a time before root switched to sh, so I don't really buy the argument that it should be removed because any particular person hasn't used it.
12:35:05 <debdrup> Also, ipf is maintained by cy@
12:37:20 <debdrup> He's even listed in src/MAINTAINERS.
12:39:21 <ghoti> cpet, back before sudo, I used to add an extra root account also. Each administor tended to have their own, so that logs would show who was active at time when blame needed to be assigned. :)
12:40:01 <ghoti> I guess I should say, back before sudo was as prevalent as it is now. This was late 80s.
12:40:54 <cpet> Wikipedia shows it as abandoned ware
12:41:43 <debdrup> https://freshbsd.org/freebsd/src/commit/d8e6f4946ce huh
12:41:44 <VimDiesel> Title: FreeBSD / src / d8e6f49 / vm: Fix anonymous memory clustering under ASLR - FreshBSD
12:41:50 <debdrup> cpet: wikipedia isn't a credible source of information
12:43:22 <debdrup> ipf doesn't have a maintainer outside of FreeBSDs source tree, but that doesn't really matter since it got moved from contrib to netpfil and has a maintainer who's an active committer.
12:43:30 <ghoti> cpet, where do you see that? I see "stable release .. 3 months ago"
12:44:05 * CmdLnKid misses darren reed
12:44:20 <cpet> Thats the one from reed ?
12:44:25 <CmdLnKid> if only ... he never worked for sun
12:44:48 <debdrup> It lived in contrib meaning it's contributed software...
12:45:00 <cpet> Stable release 10 years ago abandoned ware
12:45:54 <ghoti> Are we talking about the same wikipedia?
12:46:30 <debdrup> https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/tree/MAINTAINERS#n43 https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/log/sys/netpfil/ipfilter
12:46:31 <VimDiesel> Title: MAINTAINERS - src - FreeBSD source tree
12:46:48 <debdrup> please, PLEASE just stop looking at wikipedia
12:47:05 <cpet> Who are you to tell me what I can and can't do ?
12:47:12 <debdrup> i give up.
12:47:17 <cpet> Thank you
12:47:18 <CmdLnKid> rofl
12:47:26 <elagost> hi all; interested in getting freebsd running on one of my computers. Trouble is they're all old thinkpads running coreboot, and when booting the memstick installer I get no bootloader display, and only get a garbled top few lines (it's the blue installer color). Photo: https://litter.catbox.moe/o4uhlj.jpg (sorry, best photo I can manage right now)
12:47:35 <CmdLnKid> i needed that laff this morning
12:48:05 <debdrup> cpet: if you want to make an ass of yourself, go right ahead.
12:48:27 <cpet> debdrup: still on it ? Thought you given up ?
12:49:10 <debdrup> elagost: what sort of payloads do coreboot usually do? I've not had a ThinkPad I could be sure it'd worked on, so I've never really tried it.
12:49:43 <debdrup> MBR? pMBR+GPT? ESP? Something else?
12:51:57 <elagost> I am using seabios. same as running in kvm on linux; I have no issues using freebsd as a vm. I know it has something to do with the video hardware not being fully initialized.
12:52:07 <cpet> Googling this is a known issue with coreboot and freebsd
12:52:30 <cpet> I don't see a fix but may try one of the other BSDs see if they work pin point how or why
12:52:59 <elagost> openbsd works. boots like a console until it loads the video drivers. Linux does something similar.
12:53:20 <cpet> Try updating the fw
12:53:26 <cpet> Sometimes that fixes some issues
12:53:58 <CmdLnKid> elagost, what thinkpad do you have ?
12:54:04 <elagost> is there a way to force the freebsd installer into text console mode? Or set the video mode?
12:54:10 <cpet> Remember one time my SSD had some weirdness updated and it fixed it SanDisk drive
12:54:14 <cpet> El cheapo
12:54:23 <CmdLnKid> ibm has been notorious for bullshit installs
12:54:25 <cpet> CmdLnKid: i try just for you
12:54:45 <CmdLnKid> well thanks i guess ;)
12:54:46 <elagost> I have a T430 running github.com/merge/skulls version of coreboot. Picture was my x220 with self built coreboot. Similar build though.
12:55:03 <elagost> both do the exact same thing when booting the installer.
12:55:10 <cpet> Third part fw ?
12:55:23 <elagost> yeah, both are running coreboot, not original bios.
12:55:43 <CmdLnKid> hmmm
12:55:43 <cpet> Have you tried the original fw?
12:55:57 <CmdLnKid> dangerous configurations to advise on
12:56:00 <elagost> I have not. Not going to go back to that.
12:56:05 <cpet> Seeing where it breaks is one way to find a fix
12:56:06 <CmdLnKid> https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ftsa&q=freebsd+thinkpad&atb=v379-6&ia=web
12:56:07 <VimDiesel> Title: freebsd thinkpad at DuckDuckGo
12:56:37 <CmdLnKid> this will take quite the bit of searching for you my friend
12:56:58 <elagost> yeah I realize this combo is a bit off the reservation. it probably won't work.
12:57:21 <cpet> I would try to flash the original and go from there
12:57:23 <CmdLnKid> never say never but yeah thats quite a bit diff
12:57:37 <cpet> If not recycle and move on
12:58:02 <CmdLnKid> consider me conditioned by corp standards and just don't do that shit anymore
12:58:34 <cpet> Got a new laptop sound doesn't work , moved on
12:59:08 <elagost> yeah I am not going to put the original fw back on these machines. Coreboot is staying around. Linux works fine. OpenBSD kinda half works. I would rather keep the machines and not use FreeBSD than get rid of them to use it. was just curious, mainly.
12:59:14 <CmdLnKid> cpet, sound could work buuut you just need more time with it but gave up
12:59:44 <elagost> If there is a way to force the installer to boot text mode, or get a serial console, that may work. But I can't even get it to show the bootlaoder screen.
13:00:43 <CmdLnKid> cpet, knock it off https://capture.dropbox.com/2I97nqVLndIqHcdW
13:00:45 <VimDiesel> Title: Dropbox Capture
13:03:54 <cpet> Ok sorry masta
13:04:13 <CmdLnKid> its not like that just chill dude
13:04:54 <cpet> You chill and spread some daemon love
13:06:13 <cpet> CmdLnKid: actually it's literally not supported some weird amd sound chip
13:06:27 <cpet> AMD AM615
13:06:34 <CmdLnKid> interesting
13:07:20 <Koston> cpet: you're a pest, can you please be quiet because there are also adults here who have meaningful things to say
13:07:49 <CmdLnKid> thats not needed bro common now
13:10:06 <cpet> Such as telling someone to flash the original fw to see if freebsd boots ?
13:13:01 <CmdLnKid> if a server falls in a datacenter ... does it make a sound
13:13:09 <elagost> I think
13:13:14 <CmdLnKid> hehe
13:13:23 <cpet> Wrong sound though
13:13:47 <elagost> I think it's reasonable to ask to flash the orig firmware :) but I will be unreasonable, and not do that, I like coreboot too much!
13:13:50 <cpet> I want to play the youtubes
13:14:34 <cpet> elagost: well ok
13:23:33 <cpet> elagost: so I'm a pest but I gave you some valid advice, cool
14:25:19 <psycorama> b move 8
14:25:24 <psycorama> hmmm. :/
14:25:29 <psycorama> ignore that :)
14:34:37 <cpet> Chess is a good mental game
14:38:36 <CrtxReavr> RhodiumToad, I hadn't seen the intro pages before. . . they're a good high-level chunk of info so start with.
15:11:45 <cpet> CrtxReavr: to*
15:12:29 <CrtxReavr> Indeed.
15:12:36 * CrtxReavr never claimed he could spell or type.
15:13:06 <cpet> Well played
15:28:55 <VVD> who can approve this: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=271499 ?
15:28:58 <VimDiesel> Title: 271499 – porters-handbook/versions: missing entry for LLVM 13 for stable/13
15:29:30 <VVD> I think doc@, but who is in doc@?
15:36:14 <cpet> so waiting isn't a thing any more ?
15:36:53 <cpet> So email glen and ask and send him a donation as well
15:44:48 <cpet> Really puzzles me how this fuck is requesting 200k to work on freebsd
15:44:59 <cpet> Wrong channel
15:49:32 <yuripv> mhm, 200k
15:50:44 <cpet> The 200k
16:45:20 <TommyC> what channel was that intended for? O_o
17:05:48 <cpet> #freebsdhelp on efnet
17:06:03 <cpet> We don't do the Twitter hashtag crap on there
17:10:52 <TommyC> ah, and someone was requesting 200k to work on freebsd?
17:55:28 <cpet> Apparently