00:54:34 iio7, same occured to me with signal-desktop and vscode 00:55:20 iio7: upgrade to 13.2 then pkg update / upgrade + reinstall signal-destop / vscode and aal is good now 00:55:28 s/aal/all/ 00:56:27 and yes, sadly, there is NO warning about the removal of signal-desktop or vscode while pkg update / upgrade 03:21:08 I get an error every hour from gnome-keyring-daemon that looks something like this: asked to register item /org/freedesktop/secrets/collection/login/1, but it's already registered 03:21:12 I've found mention of it going back years in Linux, including the suggestion the suggestion that it was a Gnome bug that got fixed a few years ago. Yet here I am. I have no problems with functionality that I know of, but I would like to reduce the log noise. Any idea what it is? 04:42:48 Checking my open ports (udp) by; sockstat -4 | grep "udp", I see ntpd listens on my external public IP address too, alongside "*:123" and "127.0.0.1:123", the question is, do I really need ntpd to listen externally as well, when the purpose is just having a correct time? 04:43:22 Related to the topic, my rc.conf has; ntpd_enable="YES" - ntp_leapfile_fetch_verbose="YES" - ntpd_sync_on_start="YES" - ntpd_flags="-4" 04:50:52 ntpd needs to get responses back from the queries it sends 05:16:08 Why isn't there an rc.d script to put CARP interfaces into BACKUP state when shutting down? It seems weird to me that the server would keep sending CARP MASTER messages while shutting down. The netif script runs late enough in the shutdown process that any services have already stopped working by then. 05:16:45 In my mind it would make a lot of sense to have CARP MASTER interfaces switch themselves to BACKUP as one of the first things when initiating the shutdown procedure. Thoughts? 05:26:35 <_Random> I'm a noob, I'm doing a spring clean. Checking old drive for Data, about 7 years ago I started using PC-Bsd for a while, I have added an old (Lol) 160Gb sata drive on a usb caddy, I've forgotten how to mount the drive, da1 partition 3. zpool is not showing the drve 05:27:30 <_Random> fdisk -s da1 3: 7311360 305268736 0xa5 0x00 05:31:53 <_Random> ahh it's a ufs disk not zfs :| 05:33:33 <_Random> I get the error operation not permitted with "mount -t ufs -o rw /dev/da1s3 /mnt/160" 05:34:54 <_Random> ah no superblock 05:40:09 da1s3 is probably not the partition 05:40:40 what does gpart show da3 show, and gpart show da3s1 05:40:44 er 05:40:49 da1 and da1s3 05:43:37 <_Random> its data drive /dev/da1s3: data 05:44:13 <_Random> btw thanks, RhodiumToad: :) 05:44:44 <_Random> shoes its data drive "/dev/da1s3: data" 06:01:57 tercaL: no i don't believe it does 06:03:44 _Random: that is not the output I asked for 06:37:09 just figured out that disabling TPM on BIOS makes suspend/resume work on a lenovo laptop and all looks smooth so far including network/video 06:38:18 https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/what-is-it-with-tpm-trusted-platform-module-preventing-resume-from-suspend-to-ram.73585/ 06:38:19 Title: What is it with TPM (Trusted Platform Module) preventing resume from suspend-to-RAM? | The FreeBSD Forums 07:00:18 ly2en: is there an answer to the question? 07:13:33 i don't think so, if you refer to the device hints, no 07:14:46 i'm now onto other things, like figuring out why the webcam doesn't show up in applications 07:31:16 rc.firewall is meant to be edited, right? 07:36:51 hey all, i'm having an issues with window frames around Firefox. I'm currently running GhostBSD (FreeBSD 13.1), I have three window managers installed, XFCE, NsCDE(FVWM), Lumina. I installed Lumina just to test my theory. Basically, Firefox has NO window borders in any of the window managers/desktop environments. Other applications and web browsers seem fine. Any ideas that can help? 07:56:44 ixmpp: apparently?? 07:57:18 well that sounds promising 07:58:20 ixmpp: I use pf, so i don't know much about that side of things 07:58:27 ah ok 08:01:46 cheese is still unable to read the video from webcamd :| 08:02:01 also the lenovo fingerprint reader is not recognized under usbconfig 08:02:16 so still a way to go to get the workstation do actual work 08:03:17 I saw some guy complaining on twitter that for a freebsd desktop survey, only 2% of participants actually used fbsd as an os, based on browser fingerprints 08:34:10 ly2en: lots of people who use esoteric browsers or esoteric platforms have to fake they are chrome, so websites will work 08:34:29 esoteric browsers such as Firefox 08:35:27 aside from https://humanwhocodes.com/blog/2010/01/12/history-of-the-user-agent-string/ 08:35:28 Title: History of the user-agent string - Human Who Codes 08:44:53 meena: anyway but the bottom line was like, how can you help improving freebsd desktop by not using it ? 08:45:41 how does improving desktop correlate with "browser fingerprints"? 08:47:56 having 100x users opening that page using browser with FreeBSD in user-agent will NOT improve anything 08:49:34 no and that is not the point 08:50:22 the point is that you cannot improve X if you are not using X 08:50:50 and User-Agent: implies people are not using X 08:50:51 that's all 08:51:05 not using X to open some random page/vote some random poll 08:51:58 the random page was a poll by a freebsd developer 08:52:07 it's still random page 08:52:22 1) it is not the point I made but he made it 08:52:29 2) i can relate to it 08:52:31 you don't have to 08:54:27 I don't understand your stance behind somebody calling for more freebsd desktop usage 08:55:13 even on a "random page" 08:56:35 my stance is that user-agent string does not improve anything, and making assumptions based on it doesn't help 08:57:12 "esoteric" freebsd foundation members don't use freebsd either 08:57:56 (ehm, correction, directors) 08:59:12 maybe the guy expected at least 10% of the user-agents show freebsd and he got 2% so he went emotional/disappointed 08:59:22 today I was identified by Mastodon as a FirefoxOS user :) 09:00:13 so clearly freebsd has better odds identifying as a discontinued project with a familiar name 09:00:41 * ly2en is going back to testing webcamd and pam_fprint 09:01:06 PAM ;-) 09:01:21 the infamous lenovo fingerprint reader! 09:01:35 you're identified as a PAM user 09:02:44 (ab) 09:05:30 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Authentication?useskin=vector 09:05:32 Title: BSD Authentication - Wikipedia 09:06:30 epony: I forgot how unreadable the old MediaWiki was on mobile 09:06:40 thanks for reminding me 09:07:02 ;-) there was a theme for mobile specifically 09:07:17 minerva or something (instead of vector) 09:09:01 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_Authentication?useskin=minerva 09:09:02 Title: BSD Authentication - Wikipedia 09:18:18 epony: you can replace Minerva with any random string and you'll get the fallback skin 10:00:18 https://chaos.social/@ly2en/110236044549010223 10:00:19 Title: Simonas Kareiva LY2EN: "Inspired by the post at https://d-s.sh/2023/deskt…" - chaos.social 10:00:55 so I have an apology - the guy complaining about 2% freebsd usage is a zendesk developer, not freebsd 10:50:09 epony: I think you're looking for #OpenBSD. 11:28:47 ly2en: I think that thing with wiping the disk before checking if the connection actually works is worth reporting as bug 11:30:51 meena: i need to check if it actually formats the media at that stage, at least it looks like it does 11:38:45 in fbsd 13, what is the default vt keyrate? I tried looking into etc defaults rc.conf for it but it's set to "NO" and I have not overwritten it in etc rc.conf. Is it set to fast, aka 250.34? (i'm trying to replicate my vt rate in X) 11:51:20 no, I think $you are looking for BSD ;-) 11:52:00 while getting #linux 11:53:12 epony: was that for me? (i just joined, have no history over what happened above me) 11:53:45 well, if you think it's BSD air you're breathing.. 11:54:14 ? 12:10:00 epony: ? 12:10:24 epony: are you in fbsd channel trolling again 12:10:54 says BSD on the box 12:11:12 s10g: i believe it was directed to debdrup 's comment 12:11:21 epony: dude =) 12:11:23 drobban: ty 12:12:23 epony: whats all the negative vibes about =) 12:13:40 Apple / PAM / Linux.. fake choices as usual 12:22:37 it's like doas and sudo, but you don't get asked / don't get a choice (at all) 12:24:03 ? 12:25:13 epony: you lost me... what are we talking about? 12:25:45 you see, with the protocols, you have choices, with the programming interfaces, you don't get to choose, the system gets to choose instead of you, options to pick from in this short list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Authentication?useskin=vector 12:25:46 Title: Template:Authentication - Wikipedia 12:32:16 epony: I see. 13:19:21 Any idea why I get an error every hour from gnome-keyring-daemon that looks something like this: asked to register item /org/freedesktop/secrets/collection/login/1, but it's already registered ? 13:20:17 Soo far Google has told me I'm not alone, but I haven't found an answer I can use. 13:31:33 epony: enough. 14:43:01 ghoti: you using nextcloud? 17:25:44 i am looking for debugger that shows asm and c code of compiled application 17:25:49 can you suggest me something? 17:26:09 can't find anything with octopkg 17:27:31 i remember ddd was great but can't find it too 17:28:55 wikan: you mean c code when it's not available? 17:29:27 otherwise i'm pretty sure gdb can show you both :) 17:29:44 no, I compile my code with -g -O0 17:30:01 i wanna see both - asm and c on split 17:30:55 use gdb 17:31:23 isnt it terminal output program only? 17:33:52 there seems to be packages for at least two graphical gdb frontends: KDbg and Scope 17:33:55 haven't tried 17:37:27 and it can split a plain terminal screen, too 17:40:21 maybe i should learn gdb 17:40:33 can it be like tui? 17:40:58 Please use a search engine. 17:59:18 * rwp is an emacs user so always uses gdb inside emacs for the full ide experience 18:01:29 Do you also use zsh? 18:01:33 And OhMyZsh? 18:03:29 * parv is only a Zsh user with artisanallly crafted configuration 18:11:45 * rwp has never warmed up to zsh as to me it feels like it makes too many assumptions 18:12:45 * parv throws a WorksForMeJustFine 💣 18:12:59 * yuripv only uses zsh as it has pretty nice completion out-of-box which i'm too lazy to set up otherwise 18:13:37 I use zsh in mostly ksh emulation mode 18:14:24 gives nice completions and other useful features without having to cope with zsh's native brokenness 18:16:43 the trick is emulate zsh -c '. $HOME/.zsh-completions' where .zsh-completions contains the autoload -Uz compinit; compinit; and any other completion-related tweaks you wish 18:16:51 * drobban rolling with fish... =) 18:17:22 got some awesome completion and suggestions out-of-box without any hassle 18:17:57 that means all the completion stuff is still run in zsh mode, despite emulate -R ksh being in effect elsewhere 18:59:27 All the ksh users I've known have been male, at least 20 years older than me, and grumpy AF. 19:00:31 probably we date from the days when ksh was ubiquitous on commercial unix 19:00:41 * RhodiumToad will be 55 this year 19:01:37 I use ksh93 and I'm probably not that much older. 19:01:42 * CrtxReavr is 53, so. . . 19:01:44 Though I also just use the default shell often, on most OSes. 19:01:50 See! ksh93 user and younger. 19:02:14 Love Korn shell. Typed variables are useful in so many cases. 19:03:03 Actually, I was on a consulting engagement with AT&T once, and they were all *FORCED* to use ksh, 'cause the company had this irrational fear of all things bourne. 19:03:07 the fact that the base sh has no arrays leads to so, so many bits of bad shell code 19:03:40 for i in `cat /some/text/file` 19:04:05 well, back in the day, many systems had a /bin/sh that was not a POSIX shell but just traditional Bourne shell, bugs and all 19:04:18 I used to write a lot of scripts targeting sh for compatability between OSes. 19:04:52 They had to work on FreeBSD, Linux, DG/UX, Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, IRIX 19:05:27 they finessed the POSIX spec requirements by having a /usr/xpg4/bin/sh link to ksh, and putting that directory first on the value of confstr(SC_PATH) 19:06:58 * debdrup likes being able to write tab completes using regular expressions. 19:07:01 * RhodiumToad never used IRIX or DG/UX. Have used UMAX, Ultrix, AIX, SCO Unix (not Xenix), HP-UX, a plain SVR4 port, Solaris 19:07:19 maybe some more, I forget 19:07:54 IRIX and, um, what was the later DEC one? are the main ones i never used 19:08:07 Tru64? 19:08:16 yeah, that's it 19:08:30 I think I touched exactly *ONE* Tru64 box. 19:08:40 I've used a little less than RhodiumToad I think (minus UMAX, plus Tru64), most of them in anger. 19:08:57 I think the only DEC Alpha box I ever met was running the Alpha port of VMS. 19:09:20 The only Alpha boxen I used were running FreeBSD. 19:09:26 UMAX was the first Unix I met, at university 19:09:56 running on a 16-cpu machine, in 1988 or so 19:10:17 That's a lot of CPUs in 1988. 19:10:28 (maybe they upgraded it to 32 CPUs at some point, not sure) 19:10:54 Hell, it's a lot of CPUs in 2023; the maximum you can scale Intel systems to is 8 sockets. 19:11:11 that was an Encore Multimax 19:11:38 (I know we have SMP via multi-core now, but that's cheating since there's still only one system processor which does APIC and a bunch of other stuff) 19:12:34 NS 32032 family CPUs 19:13:21 "The original Multimax could support from 1 to 10 pairs of CPUs" - per wikipedia 19:13:32 Oh, that's the first real 32bit CPU, isn't it? 19:13:59 (As opposed to the Motorola 68000, which had a 16-bit ALU) 19:14:15 Motorola 88k series? Anyone? 19:14:45 Pretty sure that was slightly later. 19:17:02 RhodiumToad: yeah, since POSIX specs were basically written off of ksh, with only a little input from SysV sh 19:17:14 so making ksh your sh is basically automatic posix compliance 19:17:44 DataGeneral built a bunch of servers and workstations with 88k CPUs. 19:17:45 its not 19:17:53 Some were still in use when I got hired at EMC. 19:18:05 the 32016 (aka 16032) was the first full 32-bit microprocessor, yes, but it was buggy 19:18:24 "Hell, it's a lot of CPUs in 2023; the maximum you can scale Intel systems to is 8 sockets." ⬅️ wat 19:18:26 This is my surprised face: 19:19:40 meena: https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/system/mp/6u/sys-681e-tr with 8 motherboards connected to backboard 19:19:42 Title: SYS-681E-TR | 6U | SuperServer | Products | Supermicro 19:20:16 Well, four - the new motherboards are dual-CPU apparently. 19:20:44 xtile: yeah, the issue is that the shell is almost never invoked via PATH search :-) 19:21:07 :B 19:54:05 * RhodiumToad wonders why openssl enc has options to pass a password in a semi-secure manner, but apparently not options to pass key/iv except on the command line 19:59:38 do you count bit slice cpus like the amd 2900? 20:02:02 Or CPUs that aren't single-chip? 22:08:57 ooookay, so this time my 13.2 upgrade didn't get me into weird boot errors. but /etc/os-release still says 13.1 after the upgrade 22:11:02 what might be the reason for that? 22:11:43 how did you upgrade? 22:14:23 freebsd-update -r 13.2-RELEASE upgrade 22:14:23 freebsd-update install 22:14:23 reboot 22:14:23 freebsd-update install 22:15:24 uname says 13.2 22:16:13 uname -U and uname -K both? 22:19:01 both at 1302001 22:19:39 I don't know then. 22:20:18 https://pastebin.com/VfQQEVKX 22:20:19 Title: root@vhost-alfa2 /u/h/avh# uname -U1302001root@vhost-alfa2 /u/h/avh# uname - - Pastebin.com 23:14:55 Hello, with FreeBSD 13.2, my laptop (Lenovo TP p14S Gen1 (Intel) + TP Thunderbolt 4 dockstation) reboots with no warning after Xorg session unlocking (i3wm + i3lock). 23:14:55 I does not reboot immediately after unlocking the session but within 10 minutes after. There is no trace or whatsoever in Xorg logs nor in /var/log/messages. Just a plain brutal reboot for no apparent reason. 23:14:55 I am without a clue to investigate more. It seems very strange that the computer reboots, which would imply some very low level error, while only interacting a user level... 23:21:09 I'm trying to understand an issue I just saw where `clang` on Ubuntu seemed to have different default visibility than `clang` on FreeBSD. The resolution of the issue was passing -fvisibility to the linker, but I'm wondering how the different default visibility came to be. Does FreeBSD perhaps have a defined opinion about the default visibility? 23:24:06 pretty sure freebsd doesn't change that from the upstream default 23:24:19 what visibility were you seeing on each system? 23:25:10 I believe it was 'default' on Ubuntu and 'hidden' on FreeBSD (I was helping uskerine with their issue, so I didn't have the FreeBSD system in front of me) 23:26:01 I am quite certain that visibility=hidden is not the default on freebsd. 23:28:45 Any other guesses as to why the same clang invocation would result in a nearly-empty shared library on FreeBSD and not on Linux, unless -fvisibility='default' was explicitly included? 23:29:24 I should add that I was not able to use *exactly* the same clang version in my testing, but I can't find any information about a massive change in clang's behavior between 12 (what I had) and 13 (what they had) 23:31:17 given that freebsd has dispensed with block devices (see https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/arch-handbook/driverbasics/#driverbasics-block), wouldn't programs suffer performance drops due to them not using a buffer cache anymore? is there an expected way to compensate for that drop? or is the drop just not that large to worry about? (in which case, why was the buffer cache there in the first place?) 23:31:18 Title: Chapter 9. Writing FreeBSD Device Drivers | FreeBSD Documentation Portal 23:32:36 rsjw: programs that access devices directly are rare to begin with; if you want to do unaligned access to raw disks you can use a library such as libublio to do that (this is used by some ports of FUSE filesystems from linux) 23:33:33 rsjw: doing raw device i/o efficiently generally requires some form of AIO anyway 23:35:47 RhodiumToad: wouldn't regular file i/o suffer a performance drop due to the lack of buffer cache? 23:35:52 no 23:36:19 regular file i/o hasn't gone through the old-style buffer cache since the introduction of unified VM way back in the day 23:37:23 by the time block devices were removed in 4.x or whenever it was, the old-style buffer cache was purely vestigial 23:37:56 I'm not clear what the difference is between the terms "buffer cache" and "unified VM" 23:38:03 * RhodiumToad rewrote the intro(4) manpage a while back to reflect this 23:38:24 * rsjw goes to read it 23:38:29 unified VM treats the whole of available memory as a single resource for caching both file data and program memory 23:38:59 (not necessarily at the same priority, but deliberately not making a hard distinction between the two types of data) 23:39:35 this means for example that when you mmap a file, the mapped memory pages are the same ones used to cache read/write calls, thus guaranteeing coherency 23:41:02 under the hood, every active vnode is associated with a vm_object that holds the memory pages with whatever part of the file data is currently cached in ram 23:42:11 (you can see this in action by using vmstat -o to display vm objects) 23:43:17 I see. the mmap reason does make sense 23:46:07 note that ZFS somewhat breaks this model by doing its own caching below the vm_object level 23:47:46 so the unified VM unified the buffer cache and "program memory"... how did this program memory cache work? is that basically the swap system, where it swaps RAM to disk? 23:48:31 hm, well, I can now rule out a change in clang at least. No idea what quirk the user stumbled into there, unless CPython is doing something very strange with visibility on FreeBSD which I find hard to believe 23:50:17 rsjw: yes. the paging system scans all of the non-wired memory to find what's not being used, and if needed, schedules pages to be written out to their backing store, which might be swap space or might be a file (vnode) 23:52:30 rsjw: (again, if you look at the vmstat -o output, you'll see 'sw' and 'vn' object types reflecting this) 23:53:56 (you'll also see 'df' (default) objects, which are allocated memory that hasn't been assigned to a pager yet, typically program memory that hasn't needed to be considered for swapping out yet) 23:55:21 the disk requires data to be written in blocks but the memory does not. how does the system know when to write an updated mmapped region to the disk? memory accesses no longer have information attached to them that say how large the transfer is goin to be, unlike file i/o. 23:56:16 memory paging is done in units of pages, or sometimes aligned clusters of pages 23:57:19 when you write to memory (whether allocated program memory or mmap'd memory) the dirtyness of the memory is tracked only at the page level