02:31:09 <parv> Watching VT-IME presentation by Fan Chung. Damn a long road to go for better input support on vt(4)
11:34:35 <debdrup> Probably a good thing they're enforcing the masking mandate, then.
12:29:52 <gzar> hey folks, how can i tell zfs to import/mount a specific pool last?
13:35:31 <dvl> gzar: what's the problem you are seeing and trying to solve?
13:39:28 <gzar> empty mountpoints after reboot, zfs mounts them but they show no contents. Have to do an export and then import to make them mount properly
13:43:27 <dvl> gzar: could it be something mounting over top of it?
13:44:35 <gzar> yeah, zroot
13:44:47 <gzar> its why i want to try and change the order
13:45:41 <gzar> i've seen someone on the forums have the same issue, they decided to change the mountpoints due to /home/ being a symlink and whatnot
14:34:39 <CorvetteZR1> hello.  i need to connect to an old hp ilo3 kvm console; it only supports java webstart
14:34:56 <CorvetteZR1> i have icedtea-web installed, but there is no javaws binary anywhere
14:35:14 <CorvetteZR1> how can i used javaws in freebsd?
14:37:20 <otis> itweb-javaws
14:37:28 <meena> https://www.freshports.org/search.php?stype=pkg-plist&method=match&query=javaws&num=500&orderby=category&orderbyupdown=asc&search=Search&format=html&branch=head
14:37:29 <VimDiesel> Title: FreshPorts -- Search
14:38:55 <meena> i reckon this will still require a jre installed
14:41:02 <meena> gzar: how is zroot not mounted / imported first??
14:42:34 <CorvetteZR1> i have openjdk 1.8 installed
14:42:54 <CorvetteZR1> OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 1.8.0_362-b09)
14:57:51 <meena> I'm pretty, and sure, that jdk provides the same stuff as jre
14:58:01 <dvl> gzar: it might be easier to ask zroot not to over-mount.
15:17:21 <gzar> no idea honestly, how do i tell zfs to not over-mount?
15:17:40 <dvl> gzar: What are the two mountpoints in question?
15:19:31 <dvl> gzar: I don't want to say: just set canmount=off, because that may not be what you want. Knowing more will help.
15:19:32 <morsing> drobban: It's an EFI issue, I just need to figure out how to tell EFI which disk to boot from. No-one seems to know how EFI works, though.
15:20:02 <gzar> dvl: /home/newuser/work and /usr/home i guess?
15:20:23 <gzar> its weird cause they are different mount points
15:20:39 <dvl> gzar: Let's not guess.  Can you do a pastebin for the details please? zfs list output please.
15:22:20 <CorvetteZR1> so with openjdk8 and icedtea-web installed, any idea why javaws is still no where to be found?
15:23:31 <gzar> dvl: https://dpaste.com/2Z4JB6MM9
15:23:32 <VimDiesel> Title: dpaste: 2Z4JB6MM9
15:24:01 <dvl> gzar: which lines numbers are creating the problem?
15:24:48 <gzar> 7 - its not getting mounted
15:25:03 <dvl> gzar: My first guess, perhaps lines 6 and 7 want to be /usr/home not /home
15:25:34 <gzar> yeah i thought that as well, i'll change the home prefix to /usr/home and see if it helps
15:25:35 <dvl> [15:25 r730-01 dvl /] % ls -ld home
15:25:36 <dvl> lrwxr-xr-x  1 root  wheel  8 2023.02.14 00:39 home -> usr/home
15:26:08 <gzar> yeah, all /home/ stuff isnt mounted, the rest is
15:26:22 <gzar> its because of the symlink, why is that an issue
15:27:07 <dvl> gzar: Have a good look in /usr/home when both filesystems are umounted - you might have unintended files in there which should be in the other filesytems.
15:28:01 <dvl> gzar: I don't know. I'd need to poke around your system to find out.
15:28:24 <gzar> its was the same for this guy: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/mounting-zfs-datasets.60451/
15:28:24 <dvl> gzar: see also line 3
15:28:26 <VimDiesel> Title: Solved - mounting zfs datasets | The FreeBSD Forums
15:38:39 <dvl> gzar: any progress?
15:44:31 <gzar> yeah, i changed the mountpoints
15:45:00 <gzar> moved the offending mountpoints to just /hddpool/xxx
15:48:03 <dvl> gzar: You should be able to get them mounted in home directories
15:48:53 <gzar> i will change them once i'll be rebooting, to check if its mounted automatically, dont want to reboot right now
17:18:11 <morsing> I have a ZFS partition from an install on another disk. How to I either import it, or delete/re-create it? Either the zpool or the partition? I just get:
17:18:14 <morsing> gpart: arg0 'nvd0p3': Invalid argument
17:18:17 <morsing> or:
17:18:18 <morsing> gpart: index '3': File exists
17:18:34 <morsing> or:
17:18:36 <morsing>         zroot       UNAVAIL  insufficient replicas
17:18:36 <morsing>           nvd0p3    UNAVAIL  cannot open
17:18:44 <morsing> Nothing seems to work.
17:22:10 <morsing> nvmecontrol format nvme0 seems to have done the trick?
17:23:04 <morsing> No, still broken.
17:26:05 <morsing> Installing Linux on it, that will kill it...
17:29:16 <debdrup> morsing: the way to go about it is to use zpool-labelclear(8)
17:30:27 <debdrup> vdev labels, which is what zfs uses to recognize itself, are written to at least 4 places on the disk during pool creation - and it isn't impacted by any kind of regular disk partition (whether physical or logical)
17:31:41 <debdrup> nvmecontrol format (because actually-zeroing a SSD is bad) probably just tells the nvme disk to wipe a cell table, and zfs is made to resist that kind of data tampering
18:27:57 <BarnabasDK> have been a user of freebsd for many years, also a software developer since the 90s. if one where to join the freebsd project to payback some of the favors, what is the most needed area?
18:28:43 <BarnabasDK> do you need kerel devs, userland devs or ports devs?
18:29:01 <BarnabasDK> or all of the above
18:29:31 <BarnabasDK> seems hard to deduce from the web pages
18:30:25 <plasma> if i would need to guess i would say ports devs
18:30:27 <BarnabasDK> would really like to contribute
18:30:37 <plasma> but im in no position
18:30:50 <elgrande> ports are imho always a good point to start
18:31:25 <BarnabasDK> so - is there a list of ports needing attention?
18:31:56 <elgrande> you can also port some new software that is not there yet if you have an idea
18:32:05 <BarnabasDK> no
18:32:12 <meena> BarnabasDK: there's lists of unmaintained ports, that's a start
18:32:14 <BarnabasDK> lets just stick to what we have
18:32:32 <meena> also, both, ports and pkg need features
18:32:40 <BarnabasDK> meena, agree
18:33:27 <meena> you can ask in #bsdports (on EFnet) what is missing, but i think subpackages comes to mind
18:33:37 <BarnabasDK> and also maybe I can now dedicate a fifth of my time to it
18:33:44 <BarnabasDK> one day a week
18:33:48 <meena> whooot
18:34:08 <BarnabasDK> something else than what I usually do
18:35:55 <debdrup> BarnabasDK: what I did was find some area where there was one person working on it consistently and it seemed like there was more work than one person could reasonably manage in the given timeframe, and started sending patches to them.
18:36:07 <BarnabasDK> looked at the howto thing on the freebsd site, seems to be a lot about how to use git properly ..
18:36:18 <debdrup> This will inevitably end up in you getting punished for your good deeds, with a commit bit.
18:36:26 <BarnabasDK> seems to be something you need to just know imho
18:36:28 <debdrup> s/inevitably/usually/
18:37:03 <debdrup> Yeah, you'll need to know how to use the VCS (though 12 still uses svn, git is probably a better choice)
18:37:05 <meena> on the kernel side there's also plenty of stuff that needs doing…
18:37:08 <BarnabasDK> debdrup, how is that different from any other systems dev
18:37:19 <debdrup> BarnabasDK: how is what different, sorry.
18:37:37 <debdrup> s/.$/\?/
18:37:48 <BarnabasDK> I am probably not a hc kernel dev eventhough I have dabbled in kernel modules and such
18:38:04 <debdrup> BarnabasDK: I'm not a kernel developer either, I work on documentation.
18:38:15 <meena> BarnabasDK: FreeBSD also had people contributing docs patches, and, well, many of them might not be familiar with git
18:38:18 <debdrup> There's never enough documentation writers, and it's just as important.
18:39:03 <debdrup> If you can learn asciidoctor and git, you shouldn't have any problems finding documentation to write.
18:39:15 <meena> also, the docs where written at least partially as a transition document for getting lots of existing developers and docs people from svn to git
18:39:26 <BarnabasDK> sorry debdrup , but I don't want to join the project to document it
18:39:35 <debdrup> That's fair.
18:39:45 <BarnabasDK> if I could just document what I do - that would be fine
18:40:03 <debdrup> That'd be expected of you as a src developer, of course.
18:40:09 <BarnabasDK> yes
18:40:23 <BarnabasDK> still you have a deficit?
18:40:55 <debdrup> I can't imagine there'd be a point where FreeBSD has enough of any kind of committer.
18:40:56 <BarnabasDK> or- obvoiusly you do
18:41:08 <BarnabasDK> no
18:42:01 <BarnabasDK> well, I have used freebsd since the early naughties, and feel like maybe if some one can use what I know as a developer maybe it could be used
18:42:53 <BarnabasDK> am now in a positioin where I have to use time on other things aside from what I can use in my company - danish tax laws - it may as well me a non profit projekt
18:43:28 <debdrup> I'm intimately familiar with Danish tax laws, since I had to pay almost $1000 back in taxes. :(
18:44:25 <debdrup> Generally though, you become a committer because someone gets tired of you sending so many patches, that they eventually propose to mentor you.
18:44:47 <BarnabasDK> hmm makes sense
18:44:48 <debdrup> It's done this way because what's important is that people want to actively work on the project.
18:44:54 <BarnabasDK> yes
18:45:04 <BarnabasDK> I read the rules to proceed to this
18:46:46 <debdrup> Anyway, best advice I can give is start submitting patches and get them in front of someone who work in a particular area (based on the VCS log, you can see who commits to what parts of the tree), so that you aren't working on very disparate things.
18:47:05 <debdrup> I can't tell you how much work it'll involve, because I'm not sure there's any guidelines for that.
18:48:30 <debdrup> Setting out to get a commit bit seems to me to perhaps be the wrong way to go about things, as well - though I realize that's not exactly what you said.
18:48:43 <debdrup> The way you phrased it, you can just as easily be a contributor to the project, as many people are.
18:49:17 <debdrup> https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/contributors/#contrib-additional there's a lot more contributors than there are committers
18:49:18 <VimDiesel> Title: Contributors to FreeBSD | FreeBSD Documentation Portal
18:49:54 <xtile> For every project I've ever gotten involved in, I've started with documentation fixes, by just being a user.
18:50:16 <debdrup> Well, like I said, there's no such thing as too much documentation.
18:50:29 <debdrup> Err, let me rephrase that a bit.. :D
18:50:32 <BarnabasDK> and I have been since at least 20 years
18:50:37 <debdrup> There's no such thing as documentation that's too good.
18:50:50 <BarnabasDK> debdrup, true
18:51:00 <xtile> BarnabasDK: Another thing to consider is not just doing things that appeal to others (which is good!) but to maybe add your own personal hoped-for improvements and features: perhaps someone else will like them. :D
18:51:06 <BarnabasDK> and also, is there any place still for static documentation
18:51:09 <xtile> I've added a couple of the current pkg alias aliases
18:51:11 <debdrup> Documentation can be too verbose (and the documentation project primer even mentions trying to stay concise). ;)
18:51:34 <debdrup> BarnabasDK: static documentation, as in?
18:52:09 <BarnabasDK> do you remember the meters of printed system documentation that followed say - digital os'es?
18:52:17 <BarnabasDK> back in the day
18:52:36 <BarnabasDK> DEC systems
18:52:42 <debdrup> I started FreeBSD 4 with the handbook printed at AATS :P
18:53:22 <BarnabasDK> yes - my argument is, as cool as those manuals where - the where relevant for exactly mostly half a year
18:53:48 <BarnabasDK> they litteraly took up something like 4 meters of shelf space ..
18:53:51 <debdrup> That's why the documentation lives online now, and doesn't reference specific versions (where it can be avoided).
18:54:05 <BarnabasDK> yes
18:54:05 <debdrup> I'm not sure what you're getting at though..
18:54:06 <xtile> I think a lot of Unix things are kinda frozen in terms of functionality.  Not all things, but many things have become timeless
18:54:40 <xtile> still cool new things~
18:55:04 <BarnabasDK> anyways, hopefully has got nothing to do with bsd today aside the fact it is a derivative of the same system
18:56:09 <BarnabasDK> dont even know digital unix even is a thing
18:56:45 <BarnabasDK> it surely used to be - used to be viscous on the alpha platforms
18:58:49 <BarnabasDK> still think it is the largest noof cores platform I have ever programmed for
19:00:52 <meena> BarnabasDK: I'm also in #freebsd-bugs which is mostly just a stream of bugs coming into bugzilla
19:01:44 <meena> granted, most of it are upgrades for ports. but there's some cool issues sometimes
19:02:57 <BarnabasDK> meena, am doing sort of the same right now 2nd/3rd level support having been moved of cold development because I am an old git ..
19:03:25 <BarnabasDK> suppose thats how it goes
19:03:34 <BarnabasDK> even for a contractor
19:03:51 <meena> what is cold development? it sounds harsh
19:04:19 <BarnabasDK> well - if you just implement new business requirements of the stack
19:04:37 <BarnabasDK> make your tests complete
19:04:39 <debdrup> Refridgeration development?
19:04:49 <BarnabasDK> but never really follow them into actual production
19:04:59 <BarnabasDK> nah more ecommerce in my case
19:05:09 <BarnabasDK> at lest the last few hears
19:05:12 <BarnabasDK> years
19:05:36 <debdrup> Sorry, I made a bad joke.
19:05:37 <BarnabasDK> before that - national security (nemid) denmark
19:05:51 <BarnabasDK> more telco stuff
19:06:10 <BarnabasDK> debdrup, it was cool though
19:06:26 <debdrup> NemID, the thing that every state and many financial institutions rely on, and which goes down regularly? :P
19:07:19 <BarnabasDK> what data do you base that on - and also - it is now legacy
19:07:56 <BarnabasDK> as public it projects go in Denmark, I would hail nemid as a total success
19:08:11 <BarnabasDK> granted - the cometition is weak
19:08:30 <debdrup> What competition? :P
19:08:41 <BarnabasDK> myid?
19:08:46 <BarnabasDK> the replacement?
19:09:09 <BarnabasDK> that for - whatever reason I do no grasp, was necessary
19:09:20 <BarnabasDK> not saying it is bad
19:09:40 <debdrup> The procurement process is call for tenders (I think that's the English phrase) where the lowest bidder wins.
19:10:08 <debdrup> It isn't exactly a process that's well-known for producing the highest-quality solution.
19:10:22 <BarnabasDK> well nemid lived for 10 years at least without any major security leaks made public at least
19:10:26 <BarnabasDK>  now retired
19:10:42 <BarnabasDK> so - as public projects go - a total success
19:11:10 <debdrup> If that's our standard for success, it's no wonder there's something rotten in the state of Denmark.
19:11:18 <debdrup> John Mogensen was right.
19:11:26 <BarnabasDK> well - its based on PKI
19:11:36 <BarnabasDK> like the rest of the net
19:11:50 <BarnabasDK> so .. do you trust your local porn site ..
19:12:18 <BarnabasDK> am not going to clever myself on the replacement mitid
19:12:26 <debdrup> Their latest big downtime got called "a monument of incompetence" by the biggest national media.
19:12:41 <BarnabasDK> aw common
19:12:58 <BarnabasDK> you trust media - today?
19:13:04 <debdrup> They failed to test their disaster recovery.
19:13:30 <BarnabasDK> as I said nemid is dead - retired
19:13:48 <BarnabasDK> have no idea about the new replacement
19:13:59 <BarnabasDK> and also - do not trust the media
19:14:01 <debdrup> I don't trust "media", I trust individual journalists - and Henrik Moltke is one of the writers of said article.
19:15:07 <BarnabasDK> ah .. and he was one of the guys who whined about his friends getting kicked off twitter because they felt entiteld to posting Elon musks private jet locaions?
19:15:23 <BarnabasDK> on twitter ..
19:15:41 <BarnabasDK> or am I mistaken?
19:15:42 <debdrup> what.
19:16:40 <BarnabasDK> you need to look more into the depths of this I think - and also - if I am to help with freebsd I would like to keep it non political if I may
19:16:47 <BarnabasDK> does that make sense?
19:16:53 <debdrup> If you're referring to ADS, it's public information.
19:17:10 <debdrup> In fact, aircraft are required to publicize it according to international statues.
19:17:40 <BarnabasDK> and what does this have to do with freebsd
19:17:56 <BarnabasDK> if I may sir
19:17:59 <debdrup> I don't know, nor do I know why you brought it up as a response to me mentioning a specific journalist.
19:18:17 <BarnabasDK> ok lets leave it there then
19:20:02 <BarnabasDK> maybe a freebsd-offtopic channel would be nice
19:20:10 <BarnabasDK> maybe it is already there?
19:20:11 <debdrup> The journalists in question were calling out the hypocracy of Elon Musk, who's on record as being a free speech absolutist (even though the 1st amendmend doesnt apply on the internet, and even though it only applies to what the US government can't do), yet using his power as the new CEO of Twitter to take down a profile which publicized public information.
19:20:47 <BarnabasDK> debdrup, which is no different from what was before him?
19:20:59 <debdrup> I don't even know how to interpret that.
19:21:47 <BarnabasDK> yes you do :-) - but again - I am not in this for a political online fight
19:22:01 <debdrup> No, I really don't.
19:22:04 <BarnabasDK> ok
19:22:27 <BarnabasDK> so lets agree to disagree ?
19:22:40 * debdrup shrugs
19:22:50 <BarnabasDK> novel thought for young ppl
19:23:19 <debdrup> You probably shouldn't make assumptions about people you don't know :)
19:23:47 <BarnabasDK> no I probably should't
19:24:11 <angry_vincent> so happy by never having any twitter/facebook/whatever accounts
19:24:14 <meena> iirc, debdrup is about double my age, and my birth certificate is already very very yellow and faded
19:24:37 <BarnabasDK> my next birthday is the big 50
19:25:17 <BarnabasDK> and why is this important btw?
19:25:33 <debdrup> I don't know, you brought up age as if it was relevant.
19:26:15 <BarnabasDK> I did?
19:26:42 <debdrup> Now all you gotta do is tell us about how when you were young, it was up hill to school both ways, and how when it was snowing it'd be slippery and cause you to slide two steps back for every one forward. ;)
19:26:44 <BarnabasDK> well is isn't - hopefully
19:27:18 * meena should probably preface any thing she says about numbers with: i can't actually do math
19:27:23 <BarnabasDK> aah come on debdrup , not taking that bait
19:27:27 <debdrup> My grandfather on my fathers side used to make those jokes when he was still here.
19:27:29 <BarnabasDK> coma gain
19:27:32 <debdrup> BarnabasDK: it was a joke..
19:27:45 <BarnabasDK> it alwais is isn't it
19:27:52 <debdrup> Not really, no.
19:27:55 <BarnabasDK> ah
19:28:52 <BarnabasDK> so there is a list of jokes that are no longer jokes and a list of those who are?
19:28:56 <meena> I actually went a really weird shortcut to my school in Bosnia, so i did end up going downhill both ways, but thru wire
19:29:08 <BarnabasDK> who is the maintainer
19:29:32 <debdrup> ENOMAINTAINER
19:29:52 <BarnabasDK> funny - but not really an answer :-)
19:31:37 <BarnabasDK> unless thats the joke off cause
19:32:48 <debdrup> Quantum jokes, where we don't know if they're jokes or not, possibly even with observation.
19:33:27 <BarnabasDK> they are only funny if you observe them
19:34:31 <BarnabasDK> why did this turn political - if because of me - if fervently apologize - not the intention
19:34:47 * debdrup has long since moved on.
19:34:53 <BarnabasDK> check
19:35:13 <debdrup> There's a 7000-page thread of cat pictures that isn't gonna browse itself.
19:36:03 <BarnabasDK> naked pussy?
19:36:16 <BarnabasDK> sorry ..
19:37:31 <BarnabasDK> could we get back to the actual subject ?
19:37:38 <debdrup> There was a subject? :P
19:37:43 <BarnabasDK> yeah
19:37:51 <BarnabasDK> freebsd
19:37:52 <Lovis_IX> BarnabasDK: is it a new port?
19:37:55 <BarnabasDK> no
19:38:34 <BarnabasDK> although I would like to see a port of for example the old software from logtech for the squeezebox
19:38:45 <vkarlsen> meena: Downhill both ways? I hereby crown you mastress of entropy
19:38:47 <BarnabasDK> still works fine on freebsd
19:38:58 <BarnabasDK> but it is a compilation journey
19:54:07 <johnjaye> what's a good place to start with programming sockets? a written book or something on the website?
20:03:18 <meena> vkarlsen: my memory may be hazy, but I'm fairly certain about the barb wire fences. I'm not quite sure what they were meant to keep out, but they certainly didn't keep kids out
20:03:33 <meena> johnjaye: what's your need, let's start with that?
20:03:39 <vkarlsen> meena: They never do. I've been a kid, I know.
20:04:21 <meena> like, yes, there's a few standard books and articles, but maybe if we start with what you need we can narrow down the options a bit
20:06:35 <johnjaye> well i want to work on a project related to it for scheme. but i remember bsd has a lot of good networking books.
20:06:42 <johnjaye> and since it invented sockets that makes sense
20:09:24 <meena> mmmmm scheme…
20:11:38 <johnjaye> i was sure there was a chapter on it in the freebsd developer's handbook. aha it's chapter 7.
20:19:13 <debdrup> johnjaye: https://dl.acm.org/doi/book/10.5555/940239
20:20:24 <debdrup> The Design and Implementation of BSD and FreeBSD respectively are probably also go-tos.
20:20:57 <debdrup> https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/design-44bsd/ the first one is available here
20:20:59 <VimDiesel> Title: The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System | FreeBSD Documentation Portal
20:22:44 <meena> what's go-tos?
20:23:04 <meena> duh
20:23:32 <meena> i thought you said, "and probably also go-tos"
20:24:00 <debdrup> Not gonna lie, I had to think about it for a second when posting it, but I decided that it did make sense. :D
20:24:14 <debdrup> I was partially right, it made a sort of sense.
20:24:42 <johnjaye> wikipedia says 4.2 bsd was critical for the adoption of tcp/ip.
20:25:15 <debdrup> It was.
20:26:02 <debdrup> Funny you mention it though, I was looking at BSDs TCP/IP implementation just last night.
20:26:41 <johnjaye> ah that's funny.
20:26:43 <debdrup> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/csrg/sys/netinet/tcp_output.c?view=log&log_pagestart=100 scroll to the bottom, begin there.
20:26:44 <VimDiesel> Title: [csrg] Log of /sys/netinet/tcp_output.c
20:26:53 <debdrup> wnj = William Nelson Joy, aka Bill Joy
20:27:17 <debdrup> BBN made the reference implementation, but wnj improved on it by making the implementation in BSD a fair bit faster.
20:28:00 <debdrup> That's why a lot of companies copied the one found in 4.2BSD (revision 14241, if memory serves).
20:29:42 <debdrup> sam (Sam Leffler, if memory serves) handled that, because by then wnj had left for Sun Microsystems.
20:30:35 <johnjaye> the wiki page skips over 4.2 bsd entirely. it only mentions 4.3 and 4.4
20:30:56 <johnjaye> interestingly freebsd was born years before the last official bsd release when the CSRG was dissolved.
20:31:01 <debdrup> I was looking into it, because a conversation elsewhere got me thinking about the TCP/IP implementation found in Linux; and it seems like by the time it appeared, it'd already been more or less written-with-full-BSD-compatibility.
20:31:09 <debdrup> Wikipedia is often wrong.
20:31:19 <johnjaye> indeed
20:31:21 <debdrup> TCP/IP debuted in 4.1BSD, but that implementation wasn't complete.
20:32:07 <johnjaye> 1995 being the year win95 came out and the internet became a household word
20:32:31 <debdrup> Since Linux' early source history is... pretty bad (read: nonexistent, the only thing available are tags for the versions with no vcs log information), it's hard to determine where their implementation came from - but I'm fairly sure the people who worked on it looked at the source code from BSD.
20:33:05 <johnjaye> now that you mention it i have no idea how the early history of linux related to bsd codewise
20:33:11 <debdrup> Most of the TCP/IP development took place in the 80s, as you can see from the svnweb link above.
20:33:15 <johnjaye> i sort of assumed things were just copied over
20:33:32 <debdrup> There's no answer to give, because early Linux has no vcs history that's public.
20:34:03 <debdrup> All you can find are tags for the various releases, and anything between 0.01 and 0.10 doesn't exist at all.
20:35:11 <johnjaye> right
20:36:08 <Lovis_IX> whaou! still impressive to readd famous names like wnj.
20:37:19 <debdrup> Of the four people who're credited with providing the source code to Linux, one of them worked at Nortel at the time, and the others used either university email addresses (implying they were either not affiliated with a company, or were students), and one of them doesn't appear to be easy to find.
20:37:36 <johnjaye> Lovis_IX: that explains why bsd formed the basis of SunOS.
20:37:39 <Lovis_IX> (no, i am not impress by Linux Torvald, sorry)
20:38:32 <debdrup> johnjaye: SunOS was based off BSD, just like NeXTSTEP was - most proprietary Unixes had some kind of BSD code.
20:38:45 <johnjaye> well as regards linux, i guess the "wikipedia argument" would be the lawsuit prevented bsd from going mainstream. but i have no idea.
20:38:47 <debdrup> s/based/partially based/
20:38:59 <johnjaye> right. even apple today is bsd flavored in the command line utilities
20:39:02 <debdrup> johnjaye: it certainly didn't help.
20:39:27 <johnjaye> which makes me paranoid tbh. i never know if some subtle grep or sed or awk behavior will be different on my mac or not
20:39:30 <meena> lots of if_bridge(4) related bugs lately: https://bugs.freebsd.org/270607
20:39:30 <debdrup> Although I think it needs to be said that Linux would've had similar issues as BSD, had USL won the lawsuit.
20:39:32 <VimDiesel> Title: 270607 – if_bridge: net.link.bridge.inherit_mac doesn't quite work
20:40:34 <debdrup> There's a fair number of reasons why USL didn't win (and probably couldn't have), but had they managed it, I don't see why Linux would've been safe.
20:42:38 <yuripv> johnjaye: for example, https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=267749
20:42:41 <VimDiesel> Title: 267749 – Running "grep -Fivx -f known.words new.words" gives wrong result
20:42:43 <debdrup> For one thing, UNIX (as in the actual product) contained code which had been taken from BSD and had its copyright notices stripped. For another, the lawyers managed to get the lawsuit into a Californian court of law.
20:43:37 <debdrup> But had the lawsuit proceeded in the original court (which was the home-state of USL, I think?), not even the fact that UNIX contained BSD code stripped of copyright was guarenteed to help.
20:44:17 <debdrup> If I remember McKusicks telling of it, it was discovered fairly late in the proceedings?
20:44:36 <parv> johnjaye, More on "grep(1)" https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=254763
20:44:38 <VimDiesel> Title: 254763 – grep very slow with 13.0-RC4
20:44:39 <debdrup> Anyway, the lawsuit wasn't the only reason, it was just a chilling effect.
20:45:13 <parv> yuripv, Thanks for the link to "Running "grep -Fivx -f known.words new.words" gives wrong result" bug, was not aware of that
20:46:08 * debdrup wanders off to do something else.
20:46:25 <yuripv> it's now fixed in latest macos, i guess by simply updating to what's in FreeBSD, so hopefully no subtle differences
20:49:08 <johnjaye> that's... interesting. meaning macos is actively tracking and incorporating changes ?
20:49:35 <debdrup> They're barely got any code to track, so why not?
20:49:58 <Lovis_IX> people, it's so great to learn so much at your contact. Thanks very much for that. It's time for me to go to bed. Read you tomorow.
20:50:09 <debdrup> The only BSD code that gets any regular updating is the userland command line utilities; the VFS, netstack, and process models have diverged.
20:50:38 <debdrup> I don't think any modern programs on macOS use the BSD syscalls either.
20:56:06 <johnjaye> i see
21:05:24 <rustyaxe> Linux gave me a terrible skin rash i cannot get rid of.. I was told you lot might be able to help... ;)
21:07:08 <meena> hi, yes, we are non allergenic.
21:07:40 <meena> but if your skin rash is actually an auto immune reaction, i would seek out a doctor
21:11:17 <gzar> rustyaxe: why what happened to you on linux
21:13:07 <rustyaxe> Mostly keep catching systemd. It's happened to a few good distros now. So im just seeing whats chan ged since freebsd 5 days i last ran this :)
21:15:05 <meena> systemd is a great idea, really. it's just unfortunate that the design, and implementation are terrible. and the documentation is pretty subpar. also, their community management was absolutely abysmal
21:15:33 <Stazer> tjoaaaa
21:16:42 <meena> but the idea is okay. (and, like, it's not like it's novel. Solaris and MacOS, and Windows had it a decade earlier. AIX and Windows probably two or three decades)
21:18:26 <rustyaxe> idk so far im settlign in OK. setting up a kerberos/dhcp/dns instances on our new VM server at the remote station. I kinda wanted to try freebsd again since its been.. 20 years and good memories, if even a bit foggy ;)
21:19:49 <meena> oh I'm sure quite a bit has changed in twenty years, but a surprising amount has not ;)
21:20:22 * meena often finds code that hasn't been touched in over a decade 
21:33:09 <vishwin> systemd does solve a major problem of monolithic unix: lack of a service layer.
21:33:17 <vishwin> a former core team member did an entire preso on it...
21:34:03 <debdrup> https://papers.freebsd.org/2018/bsdcan/rice-the_tragedy_of_systemd/
21:34:04 <VimDiesel> Title: The Tragedy of systemd :: FreeBSD Presentations and Papers
21:34:59 <meena> in case anyone is interested on working towards that goal, https://github.com/freebsd/meetings/tree/master/supervision
21:35:00 <VimDiesel> Title: meetings/supervision at master · freebsd/meetings · GitHub
21:57:27 <AReal486> Anyone else try out 13.2 RC6? I have an it's fixed my suspend/resume issues on my laptop!
22:04:00 <bsdguydr> Hi! On FreeBSD, blacklistd or py*-fail2ban? Scenarios where use one or another?
22:05:58 <Demosthenex> bsdbandit01: blacklistd is already integrated with sshd, instead of log file scraping
22:06:21 <meena> bsdguydr: ⬆️
22:07:30 <meena> AReal486: cool! In #freebsd-dev somebody just said their mouse doesn't wake up from suspend, i.e.: /dev/psm0 isn't created
22:08:55 <bsdbandit01> Hey everyone
22:09:42 <AReal486> I only have suspend active on my laptop so I don't know anything about that. I'm running a Lenovo T590 and both the trackpad and nipple are working fine.
22:10:28 <parv> AReal486, do mouse buttons work too?
22:10:38 <AReal486> They do.
22:10:57 <bsdguydr> Demosthenex: thanks!
22:11:37 <AReal486> Sometimes my WiFi doesn't come back up but running netif takes care of that. Only happened once and after that WiFi works fine after resume.
22:12:54 <parv> What is WiFi card|chipset & related driver?
22:23:37 <meena> scrolling thru https://docs.freebsd.org/en/articles/contributors/#contrib-additional and there's a lot of "No Name"
22:23:38 <VimDiesel> Title: Contributors to FreeBSD | FreeBSD Documentation Portal
23:09:16 <agentchicken722> Freebsd is amazing I just wish it was as popular as linux
23:09:50 <agentchicken722> Though bash is better
23:10:27 <agentchicken722> Hi
23:11:44 <rustyaxe> agentchicken722: you know you can have bash on freebsd, right?
23:12:07 <rustyaxe> since at least 1991
23:12:10 <agentchicken722> Yes what I'm saying is it is a better default though
23:14:28 <agentchicken722> I am currently running gentoo and going to move to freebsd
23:16:12 * meena loves tcsh (for root) and fish (for herself)
23:35:12 <debdrup> I think /bin/csh acts as the C shell, whereas /bin/tcsh acts as the TENEX C shell, despite them being the same binary.
23:36:15 <debdrup> See the (+) and (u) labels in the manual page.
23:42:48 <mns> I'm happy with tcsh for myself, though I use bash at work and other places.
23:53:32 <meena> I'm dyslexic (sort of) and bash's completions weren't enough for me. zsh was slightly better, but gosh fish is just really my jam
23:54:01 <debdrup> meena: yes, but is it fitted aurally?
23:55:37 <meena> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEqkBcj5qlA& it's like this, but with shells
23:55:38 <VimDiesel> Title: Final Fantasy Song - YouTube
23:58:04 <meena> Unix (shells) are not the reason I'm not married, BTW, it's mostly because of bureaucracy.