00:04:03 <linuxmint77> Hello, I would like some help finding a wired pcie Nic from here https://www.umart.com.au/pc-parts/networking/network-adapters/wired-pcie-adapters-972
00:04:04 <linuxmint77> The FreeBSD hardware list for Ethernet interfaces is about 10 years old and doesn’t help https://www.freebsd.org/releases/13.0R/hardware/#support
00:04:04 <linuxmint77> I bought a tp-link tg3468 but freebsd didn’t see the Nic.
00:04:05 <linuxmint77> linixmint OS worked fine.
00:04:06 <VimDiesel> Title: Wired PCIE Adapters | Network Adapters | Networking - Umart.com.au
00:04:07 <VimDiesel> Title: FreeBSD 13.0-RELEASE Hardware Notes | The FreeBSD Project
00:26:25 <linuxmint> Test
00:53:02 <last1> when I do ldconfig -rv | grep ssl, I see several libssl's
00:53:12 <last1> how do I know which one is invoked when using -lssl ?
01:06:48 <rtprio> kipukun:
01:07:27 <rtprio> last1: -lssl as in when you link your program?
01:13:24 <last1> yes
01:13:50 <last1> so if I tell it: -L /usr/local/lib -lssl but in there I have like 4-5 libssl
01:14:52 <rtprio> i only have one; commonly there are many symlinks for those libraries
01:16:11 <rtprio> /usr/local/lib/libssl looks like it's nss; /usr/lib/libssl would be openssl in base
01:16:42 <last1> what does ldconfig -rv | grep ssl show for you
01:17:24 <rtprio> https://bsd.to/7f3g
01:17:25 <VimDiesel> Title: dpaste/7f3g (Plain Text)
01:18:51 <last1> ah, so you only have the system libssl
01:18:55 <last1> you didn't install the one from ports
01:19:35 <rtprio> i have /usr/local/lib/libssl3.so but it's not in the output of ldconfig
01:19:49 <rtprio> and, it doesn't need to be if i recall
01:21:14 <last1> ok, I figured out what the issue was
01:21:48 <rtprio> great
03:04:47 <elgrande> hi
03:04:58 <xtile> elgrande: sup?
03:05:09 <elgrande> coachella :)
03:12:03 <elgrande> and @u?
03:20:45 <linuxmint> Are there any PCIe wired NICS compatible with FreeBSD?  the FreeBSD hardware Ethernet Interfaces list is about 10 years outdated.
03:53:44 <linuxmint> I'm looking for a non-FreeBSD router firmware compatible with NICs...any suggestions?  I used DD-WRT ages ago.
04:00:34 <allendale> OpenWRT?
04:01:16 <linuxmint> allendale: thx, I'll check it out.
04:01:20 <allendale> what hardware is it?
04:01:46 <linuxmint> allendale: I had a TP-Link TG 3468.
04:02:09 <linuxmint> FreeBSD can't handle Realtek chipsets and Intel chipsets are $999!
04:05:57 <allendale> rly? It does seem both FreeBSD and OpenBSD has functioning realtek driver.
04:08:07 <linuxmint> allendale: apparently not one.  I tried one and FreeBSD doesn't see it, but Debian does. https://www.umart.com.au/pc-parts/networking/network-adapters/wired-pcie-adapters-972
04:08:09 <VimDiesel> Title: Wired PCIE Adapters | Network Adapters | Networking - Umart.com.au
04:12:49 <elgrande> there is realtek-re-kmod
04:56:24 <elgrande> Hallo Snetry
06:22:12 <elgrande> has the audio input been verified working after the audio discussion I took a glance at some days ago?
06:31:21 <_xor> kevans: I was doing esp8266/esp32 dev on Windows before, but now that my main workstation is FreeBSD, I need to figure out how best to setup my devenv for it. I was looking at the ports and saw various one, but it was a little confusing as to exactly which ports do what (by a 30 second glance anyway, haven't dug into them yet).
06:34:20 <_xor> kevans: I bascially just need to be able to plug in one of my devboards, read or write an image, and uh...that's about what's required. I'm probably going to use ESPHome, so I'll prebuild the image with the initial config for connecting to Wi-Fi (and possibly BLE, but would rather avoid that).
06:36:10 <_xor> kevans: I saw arduinoOTA, but haven't dug into it yet. Also saw a meta-port for arduino tools? That's in addition to py-esptool. Might be moot if py-esptool will let me flash ESPHome and then just use Wi-Fi for the rest.
08:45:21 <Letiute> why I get full ram bar ?  b) why its full despite 16/128gb c) what is 16"z"  https://imgur.com/BdSSPm3.png
09:00:36 <angry_vincent> is is possible to create completely isolated BE, where i can perform downgrade ( 14_built_from_source -> 14_binary ), and completely new set of packages installed (default ones from freebsd repo ) ? 14_from_source box has ports built from source. so idea is to have completely new system
09:02:31 <angry_vincent> well, not quite a downgrade
09:05:18 <meena> Letiute: because empty RAM is wasted money
09:06:32 <yuripv> Letiute: iirc, 16z is a bug in htop that was already fixed?
09:06:56 <Letiute> meena so fbsd uses all the available ram? if so, good
09:07:04 <Letiute> so all is buffered?
09:07:17 <Letiute> yuripv I see. Doesn't loks like. but what does it mean now?
09:07:38 <yuripv> https://github.com/htop-dev/htop/issues/1039
09:07:40 <VimDiesel> Title: Mem: 16.0Z on FreeBSD · Issue #1039 · htop-dev/htop · GitHub
09:07:40 <VimDiesel> 1039 – two different spellings of "timezone" https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1039
09:07:46 <meena> angry_vincent: I think so, yes: see bectl (8) create -r
09:08:22 <meena> yuripv: I'm pretty, and sure, I've seen an update to fix that
09:08:38 <meena> Letiute: are you installing from latest or quarterly?
09:09:05 <angry_vincent> meena: i remember there was something about -r in bectl
09:09:54 * meena doesn't have her glasses on and didn't see the 16 ZB in Letiute's picture
09:10:15 <meena> nor did i really notice that it's htop…
09:10:38 <angry_vincent> htop supposedly fixed in ports by daf1fd1e557dfb3d1ca4f1a18494cda77d966644
09:10:55 <Letiute> so 16 z means 16 gb?
09:10:55 <angry_vincent> Fri Feb 24 17:30:19 2023
09:11:03 <meena> angry_vincent: how badly did you screw up your src build?
09:11:18 <angry_vincent> so, much likely fixed htop as pkg should be available
09:11:20 <meena> Letiute: no, it means Zetta Byte
09:12:18 <angry_vincent> meena: no, i did not screwed it up, but i want to create be with completely new set of pkg there.
09:13:49 <Letiute> meena but actually its 16gb used? right?
09:13:57 <Letiute> so I should consider z to e bg?
09:14:07 <Letiute> so I should consider z to be gb?
09:17:43 <angry_vincent> meena: reason, is that i have so many issues with drm-kmod, so i want to get rid of it completely and disable all the compat_linux and switch nvidia driver and Xorg, instead wayland. This is hard choice for me as i cannot stand X anymore too. is why the completely new BE. i can just wipe out all the offending things that make me sad and unhappy but i don't want to lose custom changes i made in this current system
09:18:02 <angry_vincent> good, this laptop has 2 cards
09:22:19 <meena> Letiute: no you shouldn't. it's a bug.
09:26:11 <meena> angry_vincent: that sounds like a good plan
09:26:33 <meena> Letiute: sixteen Zettabytes are a lot of bytes
09:29:45 <Letiute> meena so how do I know the correct ram used?
09:29:48 <Letiute> in htop
09:30:09 <meena> have your tried top instead?
09:30:19 <meena> our upgrading to a less buggy htop?
09:42:41 <Letiute> meena how to upgrade htop? I just installed it and it must have been the lastest in ports?
09:45:51 <angry_vincent> maybe, you are on quaterly branch
09:48:44 <angry_vincent> anyway, 2023Q1 also has fixed htop
09:48:52 <angry_vincent> in b54763d2a73da3a5f4147eaae79a38d11770cfc9
09:52:39 <zostj> just installed freebsd. i selected NO for the time setup and chose Local Time and it showed the correct local time and i hit OK, but once installation is done and i've rebooted, the time is in local time but it's off by 8 hours :(
10:02:17 <tsoome> zostj see https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/time-is-utc-but-time-zone-is-local.83068/
10:02:18 <VimDiesel> Title: Time Is UTC, but Time Zone Is Local | The FreeBSD Forums
10:08:21 <jlevon> hello, we hit a situation with LIST_FOREACH_SAFE() - in our case, a loop iteration (via a callback) can potentially free not just the current entry, but the *next* one (tvar in the macro definition). any interest in a variant that's safe against that too (along with a LIST_REMOVE() variant for it) ?
10:11:03 <zostj> tsoome: thank you. i'll check it out
10:14:05 <meena> jlevon: open a bug and if it's trivial enough a GitHub pull request, if it's more complex a phabricator review. further discussion can go to #freebsd-dev
10:14:40 <drobban> how well or bad does Dell server hardware run FreeBSD?
10:15:12 <drobban> in "general".. or should I be looking at something else.
10:16:19 * meena knows nothing about real hardware and hopes someone is awake who does
10:16:33 <jlevon> meena: thank you
10:16:46 <drobban> No worries
10:17:03 <meena> I hope someone will produce vrtio hardware soon… then my purpose in life will come full circle
10:17:22 <drobban> dude vrtio? =D
10:17:40 <drobban> seems like I have been a bubble for the last decade
10:18:14 <meena> yes, that's what i mostly work on. I am not allowed to touch real hardware, because real hardware can explode
10:21:17 <meena> but anyway, yes, there is the idea of producing vrtio NICs or other PCIe components because it would mean you don't also have to write drivers for it because everybody already has them
10:22:24 <meena> what that in effect means, i believe, will be that OS vendors have to patch their virtio drivers to accommodate various buggy hardware implementation as opposed to only various buggy software implementations
11:07:50 <crb> geom: Command 'load' not available; try 'load' first.
11:07:57 <crb> huh?
11:24:54 <Letiute> angry_vincent how can I get the latest htop?
11:25:02 <Letiute> via pkg?
11:25:21 <angry_vincent> pkg install htop
11:25:34 <Letiute> well I did that yesterday
11:25:49 <Letiute> I still see 16z as ram
11:25:55 <meena> Letiute: you need to configure your repo to point at latest instead of quarterly
11:26:16 <Letiute> meena how?
11:27:55 <angry_vincent> quaterly branch has htop fixe, though
11:28:15 <Letiute> angry_vincent ok but why I am not getting those?
11:28:30 <Letiute> How can I be sure or get latest branch code via pkg ports
11:30:21 <angry_vincent> /etc/pkg/FreeBSD.conf change quaterly to latest
11:31:19 <Letiute> angry_vincent but that will get latest pkgs for all pkgs.. not just htop
11:31:23 <Letiute> isn't that bad?
11:31:49 <Letiute> meena  yuripv is 'latest' ok instead of 'quaterly'?
11:33:04 <angry_vincent> i have no opinion on that and cannot tell whether it's bad or good, it's on you to decide. i do not ue htop. i looked in 2023Q1 which is a quaterly branch and it has fixed htop
11:33:41 <angry_vincent> why you have no such version- i do not know
11:34:53 <Letiute> is "latest" as stable as "quaterly"?
11:35:20 <angry_vincent> i can't tell too
11:35:40 <angry_vincent> i never used quaterly.
11:37:16 <Letiute> angry_vincent oh you use latesst?
11:37:37 <angry_vincent> i use ports
11:46:33 <Letiute> angry_vincent ports has 2 options, latest and quarterly. Did I understood correct?
11:46:45 <Letiute> don't know why those 2 exist. why not just do latest all the time
11:46:53 <Letiute> if stability is same
11:49:28 <meena> quarterly gets updates quarterly, and otherwise just bug fixes
11:50:01 <meena> (and security fixes)
11:52:51 <angry_vincent> Letiute: i use main branch, HEAD
11:53:45 <angry_vincent> stability is such a volatile terminology
11:53:53 <angry_vincent> perhaps it has it's merits
11:54:38 <angry_vincent> i prefer to update when i feel i need too, by looking at updates but i prefer to get latet software
11:55:29 <angry_vincent> it's a matter of trade offs, where you, in reality cannot be sure about stability.
11:56:07 <angry_vincent> i don't use crazy software which changes abi every week or month
11:59:58 <Demosthenex> i'm so sick of updates.
12:01:10 <la_mettrie> Demosthenex: what's the problem?
12:04:49 <Demosthenex> oh just "stable" vs "latest" and "no commit for a year! omfg it's dead!"
12:05:06 <Demosthenex> The Churn is the enemy.
13:11:12 <yourfate> so, the default rpi images for the rpi4 come with UFS as a root file system
13:11:21 <yourfate> I'd prefer ZFS I think
13:15:21 <Letiute> What is the alternative to "systemctl" and "journalctl" as in linux for in freebsd
13:16:20 <yourfate> `service` is the command you are looking for
13:16:29 <debdrup> Turned on my screens when I woke up, and FreeBSD with Firefox running was averaging a load of 0.00, 0.00, and 0.00.
13:16:40 <Letiute> yourfate ok, what about journaltcl?
13:16:54 <yourfate> afaik there is no service for that, it just logs
13:17:06 <Letiute> yourfate how to see logs for a specific appplicaiton?
13:17:07 <yourfate> in logfiles, as linux used to
13:17:17 <Letiute> in /var/log/messages?
13:17:18 <debdrup> Linux does binary log files, FreeBSD (and every other Unix-like) uses plaintext files in /var/log/
13:17:41 <Letiute> Is the "message" file is what I should look at?
13:17:48 <Letiute> debdrup yourfate ok
13:18:16 <yourfate> hm, it seems like most guides to change the rpi image from ufs to zfs use another bsd machine to do it
13:18:26 <debdrup> /var/log/messages is the system log, whereas /etc/syslog.conf defines where other logging goes.
13:18:32 <yourfate> the only other BSD machine I have is in a datacenter ;s
13:18:40 <debdrup> If you're used to one Unix-like and want to know how another oen does it, consult with the unix rosetta stone: https://bhami.com/rosetta.html
13:18:41 <VimDiesel> Title: Rosetta Stone for Unix
13:19:18 <debdrup> I don't know whether that's been updated now that some Linux distributions change how they work but others haven't.
13:26:37 <debdrup> https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/tree/sys/dev/vt/vt_core.c#n1483 huh, this is apparently the code that's responsible for displaying the orb if one sets boot_mute="yes" or use boot -m.
13:26:39 <VimDiesel> Title: vt_core.c « vt « dev « sys - src - FreeBSD source tree
13:28:09 <debdrup> I was never quite able to figure it out on my own (I was looking in completely the wrong place), but the hackers@ mailing list suddenly got me there when I was least expecting it.
13:58:40 <Letiute> How to know if tor is running and on what port?
13:59:06 <meena> ps / sockstat
14:01:45 <debdrup> netstat as well.
14:04:15 <CrtxReavr> Just now is the first time I've ever run 'netstat' with no options.
14:04:27 <CrtxReavr> Didn't even know that was a thing.
14:04:46 <CrtxReavr> IT's always been -an or -rn or -m or -i
14:05:56 <mason> I always miss the Linux -p option, which shows the process listening or connected.
14:06:39 <mason> (I tend to use tools that work everywhere, and sockstat is only on those of my systems running FreeBSD.)
14:06:40 <CrtxReavr> That's what sockstat is for.
14:06:57 <mason> Yes, but not everywhere, and for most tools I can use the same tool for the same job.
14:07:19 <CrtxReavr> I'd rather linux's CLI networking tools didn't suck so much.
14:07:21 <debdrup> Unix-likes are the same, except when they aren't. Hence why the unix rosetta stone exists.
14:07:28 <CrtxReavr> They just keep making them worse too.
14:07:58 <CrtxReavr> Linux used to have a decent ifconfig. . .
14:08:17 <CrtxReavr> then they removed about half its functionality, and broke those features off into ethtool.
14:08:29 <debdrup> That's.. not really what happened.
14:08:33 <CrtxReavr> Then they started with this "ip" nonsense.
14:09:00 <Letiute> meena debdrup ok. works!
14:09:27 <CmdLnKid> linux networking is a frustration at best compared to what it used to be.
14:09:51 <CmdLnKid> changing just to change cause some bright idea
14:10:04 <CrtxReavr> Yeah, the linux network stack has always been shit. .. even according to Alan Cox, who wrote the IP stack.
14:10:44 <CrtxReavr> I've dealt a lot with multi-homed servers, mulit-port NICs, etc. . .
14:10:52 <CrtxReavr> Always a wild ride with linux.
14:11:02 <drobban> =)
14:11:11 <CrtxReavr> *LOVE* it when your ethX numbers would be different on every reboot.
14:11:11 <debdrup> What happened is that nettools,, which was the name of the project that contained ifconfig, route, et cetera ad nauseum, stopped being maintained because the prior maintainer got a case of life getting in the way, and nobody stepped up to the plate. So when the ABI of the Linux kernel changed (which Linus always claims isn't supposed to happen, but does regularly), it stopped working for certain things.
14:11:24 <CmdLnKid> crtxreavr, lol i remember that
14:11:40 <drobban> think I have been dealing with 3 ways to it in the last 10 years.... to no apparent reason.
14:11:48 <CrtxReavr> CmdLnKid, what's worse was some of the horrible kludges put in place to "fix" that.
14:11:59 <drobban> (regarding linux and netconfig work)
14:12:02 <CmdLnKid> was so frustrated with it i about threw a laptop across the room needless to say the server would have been injured
14:12:08 <debdrup> That meant that anyone, and I do mean _anyone_ was free to step in and create an alternative. That alternative could've taken the form of a fork of nettools that was maintained, but _someone_ saw the oppotunity to do something completely different.
14:12:11 <CrtxReavr> SuSE changed from ethX to eth<MAC address>
14:12:18 <CmdLnKid> thats linux for ya
14:12:24 <CrtxReavr> That was tedious, to say the least.
14:13:13 <CmdLnKid> i can carve up a slackware linux based server all day but never felt the need to admin a suse server or client for that matter
14:13:26 <CmdLnKid> tedious in either way
14:13:34 <debdrup> It's apparently just a happy accident a company, which exists because of support contracts, is the one that stands to benefit from the support contracts people are forced to switch to, in order to get help for new solution.
14:15:19 <CmdLnKid> anyway ... this is bsd ;-)
14:15:35 <debdrup> This is truue.
14:15:51 <CmdLnKid> i could dog on linux all day and not get anywhere... this is why i use bsd's now
14:15:58 <CmdLnKid> and usually only freebsd
14:16:15 <CmdLnKid> corps make that choice most the time
14:18:30 <meena> debdrup: thanks for the refresher on Linux ifconfig
14:18:32 <mason> debdrup: net-tools has been revivified as of the last... dunno, five or seven years ago
14:19:17 <debdrup> mason: yep, someone stepped up to maintain it afterwards.
14:19:33 <mason> https://sourceforge.net/projects/net-tools/
14:19:34 <VimDiesel> Title: net-tools download | SourceForge.net
14:19:54 <mason> Hm, it's seen activity as recently as a couple months ago. Didn't realize it was quite that vigorously alive.
15:15:37 <nmz-> debdrup: I just did, same problem
15:56:52 <kevans> _xor: iirc the arduino toolchain in-tree doesn't quite integrate esp support
16:11:08 <_xor> kevans: Looking at it right now in fact.
16:11:37 <_xor> kevans: I'm pretty sure it doesn't either, at least not currently...though it looks like maybe not too hard to compile?
16:11:49 * _xor prepares for this to blow up in his face
16:27:51 <kevans> I think we do have an independent espressif toolchain in ports
16:28:13 <_xor> devel/xtensas-esp32-elf, but it's a couple of years old
16:28:36 <_xor> Just duplicated it and in the process of updating it.
16:29:30 <_xor> I'm updating it to the latest version (1.22.0 -> 1.25.0), which I hope satisfies the requirement for this other app to compile the firmware. I hope it checks the version using >= and not ==.
16:32:06 <Letiute> I wonder why a 1+1=2tb raid0 that I have shows 1.6TB capacity in `df -h` ?
16:49:31 <ek> Letiute: That does seem low. Is it partitioned? I'd expect 1.9 or something but not 1.6.
16:51:25 <domlaut> smells like MBR
16:52:23 <Letiute> ek not partition. I just installed freebsd with stripe raid 0 on 1tb+1tb
16:53:56 <Letiute>  df -h  Filesystem            Size    Used   Avail Capacity  Mounted on
16:53:57 <Letiute> zroot/ROOT/default    1.6T    302G    1.3T    19%    /
16:55:29 <domlaut> Letiute: what does `gpart show` say
16:57:14 <Letiute> =>        40  1953525088  nvd0  GPT  (932G)
16:57:15 <Letiute>           40      532480     1  efi  (260M)
16:57:15 <Letiute> for both
16:57:49 <debdrup> Don't use striping.
16:59:03 <_xor> kevans: Heh, I'm trying to figure out why it appears this toolchain is built using its own toolchain that in turn uses autotools (Makefile).
16:59:29 <debdrup> Makefiles are for make(1) though?
16:59:35 <debdrup> Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
17:00:22 <_xor> kevans: It's also using yacc to generate some files from its own grammer. Mind you, this isn't for the resulting compiler, it's for the *installer* to get build the actual compiler.
17:00:26 <_xor> It's parsers all the way down.
17:01:07 <_xor> I meant that it's generating a required Makefile using autotools.
17:01:23 <Letiute> debdrup ya, dangerous?
17:01:33 <Letiute> domlaut so efi takes 260m?
17:01:59 <debdrup> _xor: oh. That seems.. strange.
17:02:19 <debdrup> Letiute: RAID0 aka striping is a good way to lose data.
17:03:02 <domlaut> it's also very fast at it
17:04:07 <Letiute> debdrup yes it is..
17:04:17 <debdrup> What's the point of going fast if it leads to data loss?
17:04:24 <Demosthenex> debdrup: but, speed!
17:04:31 <Letiute> true
17:04:35 <debdrup> Demosthenex: Don't butt speed.
17:04:43 <Letiute> I thought "hey, I have to backup anyway"
17:04:51 <debdrup> That's not the point, though.
17:04:53 <Demosthenex> who cares about data. look at all the webapps using non-ACID databases. who cares if we lose a few likes on pictures of cats.
17:05:04 <Letiute> so raid0 for OS + raid6 for backups
17:05:25 <Demosthenex> Letiute: always mirror boot drives.
17:05:31 <Demosthenex> it's a server (nominally)
17:06:03 <debdrup> Look, if you don't care about your data, you don't care about your data. That's your decision. And it's my decision to never help anyone who deliberately does dumb stuff because they think they're being clever.
17:06:34 <Letiute> I agree with you both.
17:06:54 <Letiute> raid0 should be avoided
17:06:56 <domlaut> you can care more about speed than the data. there are valid use cases for striping. it's only a generally bad idea, not a universally bad one
17:07:16 <Letiute> true
17:07:18 <debdrup> domlaut: we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
17:07:33 <Letiute> so if I loose something, i replace drive, reinstall freebsd manually, then zfs.recieve() backups?
17:07:36 <Letiute> done?
17:07:47 <debdrup> Who knows.
17:08:01 <Letiute> no , I mean, is that the normal way?
17:08:12 <debdrup> If you insist on doing dumb stuff, I refuse to help.
17:08:24 <domlaut> assuming good backups, yes. the backups themselves might be corrupted
17:08:27 <Letiute> I am not asking you specifically only :)
17:08:55 <domlaut> you can have a drive in raid0 that seemingly works but messes up your data. can take a while before you notice
17:09:06 * Letiute agrees with -> domlaut 20:06:56
17:09:07 <Letiute> you can care more about speed than the data. there are valid use cases for striping. it's only a generally bad idea, not a universally bad one
17:09:35 <Letiute> domlaut oh.
17:09:37 <domlaut> so you not only have to rebuild *everything*, but you also need to know exactly when any striped drive failed
17:09:44 <domlaut> and that's... very, very hard
17:09:53 <Letiute> domlaut but scrub won't catch it? despite whatever raid version
17:10:40 <domlaut> theoretically, there are failure modes you can't catch in any other way than comparing known-good state bit-by-bit with whatever is on the drive
17:11:02 <debdrup> Read a book on ZFS.
17:11:25 <Letiute> Is that a prerequisit to talk in irc?
17:11:31 <Letiute> domlaut ok but you said "raid0 that seemingly works but messes up your data. can take a while before you notice"
17:12:11 <Demosthenex> anyone here bought any of the "zfs mastery" books?
17:12:14 <domlaut> well, I don't know for sure what you can and can't catch. I wouldn't assume a backup of a raid0 array is actually good/reliable
17:13:17 <domlaut> you'll have to dig deeper into that if you'd like. the only case I'd use striping for is ephemeral data that requires massive speed
17:13:35 <Letiute> debdrup don't get disturbed if things do not go your way. You gave this advice multiple times before too. I am not asking help from you specifically. You don't have to respond. Specially no need for "If you insist on doing dumb stuff, I refuse to help." I still respect for help you gave already though.
17:13:55 <Letiute> domlaut I se..
17:13:57 <domlaut> and there are use cases for that - eg. with distributed live video streaming
17:14:06 <Letiute> domlaut interesting
17:14:15 <domlaut> where you don't care when/if it fails, you replace it with another system, and any data after 1 minute is useless to you anyway
17:14:18 <domlaut> for example
17:14:56 <Letiute> right..
17:15:04 <domlaut> there's very *little* valid use cases for striping, but there are *still* valid ones (even with NVME drives that are very fast by themselves, and have largely eliminated a lot of what I've used striping for previously)
17:15:41 <yuripv> and you can imagine yourself in some "spy" film where security footage suddenly disappears
17:16:32 <Letiute> ok
17:18:43 <domlaut> yuripv: hopefully a system you'd never need to run striped :D
17:49:24 <last1> when installing openssl from source, it places a lib file in /usr/local/lib named libssl.so.1.1
17:49:43 <last1> but ldconfig doesn't see that lib, only if I rename it to libssl.so.11
17:51:44 <elgrande> have you tried to stat the lib?
17:53:49 <last1> I didn't, what would that tell me ?
17:54:04 <elgrande> it queries the file system
17:55:13 <last1> I think the issue is that ldconfig doesn't read libraries that have multiple dots at the end ? so libssl.so.1.1 is not ok but libssl.so.11 is ok
17:55:21 <last1> it's just a theory
17:55:55 <elgrande> have you executed stat on the file?
17:56:48 <last1> yes
17:56:58 <elgrande> what does it say?
17:57:18 <last1> 99 19021646 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 38042728 697892 "Mar 16 23:02:26 2023" "Mar 16 20:38:05 2023" "Mar 16 20:38:05 2023" "Mar 16 20:38:05 2023" 32768 1472 0 libssl.so.1.1
17:59:29 <elgrande>      If no options are specified, the default format is "%d %i %Sp %l %Su %Sg %r %z \"%Sa\" \"%Sm\" \"%Sc\" \"%SB\" %k %b %#Xf %N".
18:03:19 <last1> ok...so how is that relevant to the issue at hand ?
18:13:11 <yuripv> why would you install openssl "from source"?
18:20:47 <last1> I knew this question would come
18:20:54 <last1> and I'd be told not to do it :)
18:22:55 <yuripv> exactly, install somewhere else to not clobber what was installed from ports, check what the port's Makefile does :)
18:23:35 <gman999> not sure if everyone saw this from MWL:
18:23:37 <gman999> https://mwl.io/archives/22653
18:23:38 <VimDiesel> Title: “Run Your Own Mail Server” chapter 0 – Michael W Lucas
18:37:29 <meena> sometimes I wonder what the W stands for, but not enough to try to actually find out
18:41:19 <spork_css> I think mostly to keep people from getting confused with the porn star that has the same name
18:41:59 <last1> you mean Michael Big D. Lucas ?
18:46:47 <gman999> i hoped you knew that story spork.
19:03:48 <haroldp> So I cloned a ZFS dataset from a snap, and now I can't delete that snap (of course).  I promote-d the cloned dataset, but that just moves the snap over under the clone.  I still can't delete it.  How do I get myself out of this?
19:04:27 <haroldp> gman999: just saw that on postfix-users@.  Will be buying it.
19:09:04 <Demosthenex> i was just looking at that guy's site. i was considering getting his whole 2022 stack
19:14:06 <gman999> MWL is one of the biggest assets of bsd land
19:15:06 <Demosthenex> i was a bit leery about buying the lot, never having read any of his books
19:16:19 <Demosthenex> was looking for a preview somewhere
19:16:36 <mason> Demosthenex: Maybe listen to an interview or two with him on BSD Now.
19:16:41 <mason> There are at least a few in the archives.
19:18:36 <Demosthenex> mason: frankly, given his prolific writing, i'm not too worried. ;]
19:22:46 <haroldp> ugh, it looks like the only answer is to `zfs send` and then rename.  screwed myself on that one.
19:30:02 <Demosthenex> any opinions on borg backup? so i have a large raidz now, and i'm going to setup zrepl for layered zfs snapshots. gotta backup off the raid array though ;] so i was going to use borg to jbod for critical files, and my borg to offsite.
19:30:36 <Demosthenex> i don't see the sense in doing borg of my raidz to the raidz when zrepl snapshots should cover that use case in a more convenient manner
19:31:01 <gman999> calling michaeldexter...
19:31:43 <Demosthenex> gman999: should we cue the doom music?
19:32:13 <Demosthenex> i've used borg for years, just pissy that borgmatic wants f*&(*&king YAML inputs
19:32:40 <gman999> i dont use.. but i know dexter enjoys "zfs plus" questions...
19:38:10 <michaeldexter> sup
19:38:31 <debdrup> sup dex
19:38:41 <michaeldexter> hej
19:39:50 <debdrup> If I were to respond in Danish, are you sure you'd understand?
19:40:02 <michaeldexter> Unlikely. :(
19:40:07 <debdrup> Aw
19:40:17 <michaeldexter> Takk! or Tack, or Tak?
19:40:40 <debdrup> First is Norwegian, second is Swedish, and third is Danish, I think?
19:40:54 <Demosthenex> tussentack
19:41:01 <michaeldexter> Bless you!
19:41:15 <debdrup> Danish is a fun language; one of the best things about it is that there's a dialect where it's possible to say an entire sentence without using a single consonant.
19:41:47 <debdrup> "A æ u å a ø u i a å" meaning "I'm out on an island, out in a river"
19:41:55 <michaeldexter> Sweeet!
19:42:02 <debdrup> Right?
19:42:44 <michaeldexter> Pieci vliki vilka vilku!
19:43:34 <Demosthenex> the string "rw" repeated 67 times without newline is a valid MUMPS program
19:43:45 <haroldp> Wait, is that Danish or Hawaiian?
19:43:53 <Demosthenex> michaeldexter: i brought up backups, and someone mentioned you're passionate there ;]
19:44:08 <debdrup> haroldp: well, it might be Hawaiian too, I don't speak that - so I have to hope it's not something foul in Hawaiian. :P
19:44:45 <haroldp> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRthPKsrGHU
19:44:46 <VimDiesel> Title: John Prine - Let's Talk Dirty in Hawaiian - German Afternoons - YouTube
19:54:33 <michaeldexter> Demosthenex: What's the question?
19:54:49 <michaeldexter> To back up or to not back up?
20:02:44 <Demosthenex> oh no, i was asking opinions about zrepl and borg
20:03:23 <Demosthenex> i'm a current borg and zrepl user. setting up new server is all
20:03:56 <Demosthenex> debating whether zrepl zfs snapshots is sufficient for local backup ON the raid. i will use borg to backup critical data off the raid and offsite
20:15:37 <mason> Demosthenex: I just do everything using snapshots. It's very efficient time-wise: https://github.com/ChibaPet/backup-zfs
20:15:38 <VimDiesel> Title: GitHub - ChibaPet/backup-zfs: Shell scripting to automate back-up via ZFS snapshots.
20:26:24 <Demosthenex> mason: yeah, i have zrepl already configured making snapshots ;] every 15 min for an hour, 72 hourly, 30 daily, 12 monthly
20:26:45 <Demosthenex> and if that zfs pool dies, i'm doing borg of critical files to another drive and offsite.
20:26:50 <mason> I quite like the notion of using old tape-retention strategies with ZFS snapshots.
20:27:00 <Demosthenex> i'm just... not used to making my raid also be my backup via snapshots
20:27:17 <Demosthenex> and  yes, i know, i'm making backups off the raid
20:27:21 <mason> Demosthenex: That's where I differ - my back-ups are all themselves ZFS pools. Live backup is a ZFS pool, offsite is another ZFS pool.
20:27:34 <Demosthenex> well, i'm hoping to get closer to that soon
20:27:52 <mason> Demosthenex: Definitely *don't* have your raid "also" be back-ups. I'm saying, using what snapshots give you to ease the whole process.
20:27:55 <Demosthenex> my laptop is freebsd, new server is too. so i hope to do zrepl to send my laptop drive whole to the server in a sub fileset
20:28:05 <mason> They'll minimize how much you have to transfer to have coherent, reliable back-ups.
20:28:17 <Demosthenex> i've been using borg to send to local server. soon i can graduate that to zfs
20:28:42 <mason> I went from homebrew rsync-based back-ups to homebrew ZFS-based back-ups when I moved everything to ZFS.
20:28:52 <mason> It ended up being a fairly similar workflow.
20:29:12 <mason> (The rsync wasn't too wildly different from when everything I had fit onto tapes. I still miss tape.)
20:29:36 <Demosthenex> so i think borg's been quite good.
20:29:59 <mason> There's something to be said for that. If you understand and trust it, it's a good back-up system.
20:30:22 <debdrup> michaeldexter: that one's easy. :P
20:30:23 <Demosthenex> dedup, encrypt, compress. can offsite to an untrusted storage
20:30:36 <debdrup> The answer is, never not back up.
20:30:53 <Demosthenex> and while i like zfs snapshots, i'm just debating the backup history in snapshots vs borg
20:31:00 <Demosthenex> i know snapshots are completely easiest
20:31:54 <mason> Snapshots minimize what you back up, and they keep your back-ups on something you can scrub, more than making the process easier.
20:32:41 <Demosthenex> i'm also well aware that if i take a borg backup of the raidz TO the raidz, it's not adding anything
20:39:56 <meena> debdrup, michaeldexter: my answer is: eh 🤷🏻‍♀️
21:15:41 <clemens3> hmm, i put i386 iso on a usb stick with dd and nothing is recognized.. before i by mistake put the amd64 iso on the usb stick and it got recognized just later boot coplained it is not a i686 image..
21:16:11 <clemens3> so not sure what went wrong with the i386 iso/image..
21:36:51 <Letiute> should we use disk-by-id instead of /dev/sda etc type of names? I heard if you reboot and replace drives and the name changes, zfs can  cause problems?
21:46:08 <michaeldexter> Sorry I could not chat. Try to catch me later. :(
22:50:51 <crb> is it possible to build a release image without being root?  Right now it looks like you need to be root to do the make install{world, kernel, distribution}
22:59:46 <ox1eef_> net.local.stream.(recv|send)space is a number of bytes ? And why can I seemingly use setsockopt to go over that amount ?
23:17:39 <Ltning> How can I identify which process is creating files in a directory?
23:17:54 <Ltning> My /tmp is filling up, files are owned by www, but there are both apache and svn processes running as that user
23:19:32 <la_mettrie> have you tried something like:  top -m io -o total
23:22:55 <Ltning> Figured it out. Started auditd, then "auditreduce -z <jailname> < /var/audit/current | praudit > audit.log" for a little while, and looked at the result. It's the apache process, indeed.
23:57:20 <michaeldexter> Demosthenex: The tools generally come down to zrepl, zxfer, and sanoid/syncoid, or whatever's built-in, such as with TrueNAS. You definitely want some snapshot retention to mitigate human error or ransomware, and "no array is a backup". Ideally replicate to a second pool or two.