00:43:20 <debdrup> Demosthenex: well, they're not block devices.
00:46:39 <debdrup> Are you running securelevel though?
00:48:14 <debdrup> JKHII: that's a question only the security officer can answer
02:12:15 <alip> is there a plan to rewrite freebsd in rust so it's blazing-fast and secure?
02:13:26 <mason> alip: Better if it were Common Lisp.
02:13:32 <ngortheone> alip: unlikely in its enirety, but there are attempts of writing drivers in Rust out there
02:13:55 <deeaitch> alip: I hope no. You already created your own
02:16:19 <deeaitch> alip: why are you doing this? now i'm expecting nightmares
02:16:29 <ngortheone> Drivers in rust are interesting, because it offers safer way of writing kernel modules. I can see a future where FreeBSD maintains rust KPI bindings, but rewriting entire OS in Rust has negative ROI, it is easier to write a new OS from scratch. Same deal with Linux. It will never be rewritten in Rust completely
02:16:56 <deeaitch> ngortheone: another one :(
02:17:05 <ngortheone> ?
02:17:32 <deeaitch> i will see nightmares after that. looks like you didn't read last news
02:19:17 <ngortheone> well, thankfully the quality of your sleep has nothing to do with the question at hand :P
02:19:18 <deeaitch> didn't read or just a mantra fan, in this does not matter, fans just does not see. it always just different
02:19:20 <deeaitch> just read
02:19:36 <deeaitch> and try to forget about mantra
02:20:44 <deeaitch> i saw how thy created their own system, i saw how they tried to rewrite ThreadX
02:20:58 <deeaitch> believe me, it is nightmare
02:21:29 <ngortheone> ok, ok, take it easy, deeaitch, nobody is rewriting FreeBSD in Rust
02:21:39 <ngortheone> ...yet :P
02:23:30 <ngortheone> alip: in case your question was not a flame starter - take a look at https://wiki.freebsd.org/Rust, there you will see links to attempts writing Rust kernel modules
02:23:47 <deeaitch> Why just do not finish own system? Do you know why they cant?
02:25:21 <deeaitch> because i know, in our company we tried big project for a 2 years
02:26:10 <deeaitch> we tired embedded system, irmc
02:27:59 * ngortheone leaves the room
03:09:04 <cybercrypto> Hi all, I tried the re_kmod package for realtek (my NIC has realtek 8111C and generic kernel does not support it). This card is new, besides the fact it is former PCI format. The NIC is not detected and I am still looking how to configure/fix.
03:10:08 <cybercrypto> pciconfig gives me this as output: "none3@pci0:1:6:0:       class=0x000000 rev=0x10 hdr=0x00 vendor=0x10e8 device=0x82b0 subvendor=0x0004 subdevice=0x0000"
09:06:29 <Demosthenex> Kalten: no, i was deliberately trying to sabotage that disk by overwriting it online.
09:06:50 <Demosthenex> Kalten: on linux there is no protection, and every article including the dd command has huge warnings that you need to triplecheck what you dd over
09:07:14 <Demosthenex> debdrup: well, block devices... erm. i'm making a general statement i suppose ;]
09:07:37 <Demosthenex> debdrup: as to secure level, just a default install with no packages yet. i did check most of the security boxes in the installer
12:04:24 <debdrup> When I say securelevel, I mean the kern.securitylevel OID in sysctl(8)
12:33:43 <debdrup> Except it's kern.securelevel. :D
12:37:12 <nerozero> Good day
12:37:40 <nerozero> I'm having an issues with freebsd stock tftpd during PXE booting devices
12:38:08 <nerozero> any advise which one to use?
12:39:43 <otis> i prefer atftpd (different ones worked with PXE very unreliably)
12:40:41 <nerozero> otis, thanks for reply!
12:43:37 <nerozero> cant find it in ports/ftp
12:45:51 <otis> hm, it's expired from ports, indeed. it's been very long time since i last used pxe+tftp :-9
12:45:56 <otis> :-(
12:48:10 <nerozero> in my case old machines booting ok, but new ones shows weird behavior, like instant brake
12:48:40 <nerozero> anyway thanks for suggestion
12:52:05 <nerozero> pxe linux manual contains a good review about tftp-hpa serer
12:54:20 <otis> oh yes, that one is also a good alternative. i couldn't recall it (but i've also used it)
12:55:36 <nerozero> otis thank you!
13:37:13 <debdrup> What issues are you having with tftpd?
13:45:00 <f451> hi. let's say you're running poudriere and it usually builds against say 2022Q4. if a port gets updated in HEAD but not in the 2022Q4 ports branch, how can one apply the update from HEAD to that (local) branch?
13:45:01 <nerozero> debdrup, DATA block 1, attempt 0 failed (Error 40: Message too long)
13:45:09 <nerozero> something like this one
13:46:20 <nerozero> dell optiplex desktop workstation, not able to transfer file at all while tftpd say - transfer successful
13:47:13 <nerozero> in general mu guess is a kinda of packet size ussue
13:47:17 <nerozero> *issue
13:48:07 <nerozero> didn't go deeper at the moment, ( not followed tcpdump traffic )
14:00:37 <souji> f451: You can just copy the directory from HEAD. But it's not pretty though, and I would not recommend it.
14:01:28 <souji> and if it depends on more current dependencies, it won't work...
14:02:23 <f451> souji: ty
14:02:54 <f451> i thought there might have been a git command to take care of the deps
14:06:10 <Remilia> f451: you can use overlay
14:06:41 <f451> so, make an overlay for that one port
14:06:55 <f451> i use overlay in the context of sccache
14:06:57 <Remilia> yes, I do that for phpfpm exporter
14:07:03 <Remilia> er
14:07:04 <Remilia> what is that?
14:07:16 <f451> like ccache but for rust
14:07:24 <f451> really speeds up rust
14:07:27 <Remilia> oh
14:07:50 <Remilia> anyway, you create a new ports tree in poudriere which will just be the overrides of the ports you need
14:07:59 <Remilia> and specify that with the -O option
14:08:00 <f451> theres sccache and there's the poudriere thing for it
14:08:06 <f451> yes
14:08:31 <Remilia> it works fine for me
14:08:38 <f451> ports-mgmt/sccache-overlay
14:08:46 <Remilia> uhh
14:08:55 <Remilia> I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing
14:09:17 <Remilia> sorry, I thought you were talking about poudriere
14:09:20 <Remilia> ignore my comments above
14:09:34 <f451> its my fault - i brought sccache into the discussion ;)
14:09:37 <f451> i am
14:09:44 * Remilia assumed the goal was to use an updated port with poudriere
14:09:59 <Remilia> so I was talking about poudriere bulk -O
14:10:02 <f451> yes got sidetracked soz
14:10:18 <f451> yes i use -O in the context of sccache
14:10:25 <Remilia>      -O overlay \Specify an extra poudriere-ports(8) tree to use as an overlay. \Multiple -O overlay arguments may be specified to stack them.
14:10:27 <nimaje> afaik sccache-overlay is an overlay to use sccache with all ports and poudriere has an mechanism to use overlays
14:10:30 <f451> sorry for the confusion
14:11:09 <f451> so your overlay for yr php program - it's just that one port?
14:11:17 <Remilia> yes
14:11:33 <f451> awesome. i have my answer :D
14:12:15 <f451> means that if a port gets an important update, i can overlay that update
14:12:19 <Remilia> poudriere% ls …/localpatches \net-mgmt
14:12:19 <Remilia> poudriere% ls …/localpatches/net-mgmt/phpfpm_exporter \distinfo        distinfo.orig   files           Makefile        Makefile.orig   pkg-descr
14:12:26 <f451> if i understand coorrectly
14:12:29 <Remilia> yes
14:12:53 <Remilia> just create a new null-sourced 'tree' that points at a directory with the usual structure
14:13:02 <f451> excellent, thats just what i need
14:13:16 <f451> thank you
14:13:18 <Remilia> note it might be a poudriere-devel feature
14:13:26 <f451> i use that anyway
14:13:55 <f451> mainly for it fetching deps from the pkg cluster
15:53:33 <SymbioticFemale> i have two encrypted ZFS drives in a mirror zpool. i only have two hard drive slots in my computer, so i want to replace the disks one at a time (with bigger disks) and re-silver after each replacement. however, when i use zpool-attach or zpool-replace, i get "one or more devices is currently unavailable"
16:01:36 <CmdLnKid> boot into a rescue disk, import the pool and unmount all filesystems then try again.
16:01:56 <CmdLnKid> with replace...
16:47:49 <Schamschula> The update to 13.1-p6 did not go well. The /boot/efi slice is marked as dirty. fsck won't fix it.
17:03:55 <CrtxReavr> You tried from single user, without it mounted and used 'fsck -y'
17:03:58 <CrtxReavr> ?
17:06:01 <Schamschula> No problem when in single user mode. However, the moment I try to do a normal boot I get the same error and get dropped into the singleu user mode.
17:07:25 <CrtxReavr> Not really what I asked.
17:08:45 <Schamschula> Yes. I had done that. The fs did not come back as dirty.
17:09:08 <Schamschula> I now see it is complaining about a different drive.
17:13:51 <SymbioticFemale> CmdLnKid: what's the fundemental problem that requires a rescue disk? i've tried more things here (other than rescue disk) including creating a brand new mirrored zpool and a few other things and the result is always the same "one or more devices is currently unavailable"
17:16:21 <Schamschula> The old boot drive. A couple of reboots later fsck is running on it!
17:19:58 * ober ponders where disklabel went in 13.0
17:20:07 <ober> 14.0 rather
17:21:50 <CrtxReavr> ober, disklabel and bsdlabel have been hard linked for ages. .
17:22:06 <CrtxReavr> I guess they decided to drop the disklabel name finally.
17:22:43 <ober> I see. /me shows his age
17:24:47 <Schamschula> Back up! Thanks
17:26:36 <SymbioticFemale> ok so i fixed my issue. it was caused by not initializing/zeroing the new device
17:27:06 <SymbioticFemale> i zero'd the first 500mb and then it was accepted to replace an offline device
17:27:13 * SymbioticFemale shrugs
17:27:21 <ober>    type: netbsd-ffs
17:30:26 <ngortheone> morning
18:02:03 <Demosthenex> i'm still pumped over my storage testing. freebsd's storage layer is so.... SANE
18:02:44 <Demosthenex> and mirroring my OS, a dream come true
18:03:04 <Demosthenex> (gpt/bios mode only, no uefi, some restrictions may apply, batteries included)
18:04:33 <debdrup> If it's a system that's been manufactured in the last decade, it's probably UEFI with CSM.
18:04:51 <Demosthenex> well, i tried uefi, but that bug in the freebsd uefi installer didn't mirror
18:04:55 <Demosthenex> which i confirmed.
18:04:57 <Demosthenex> so i reverted to bios
18:05:10 <Demosthenex> because... though i could build anything i wanted, i desired the out of box experience
18:05:25 <debdrup> There's no way to "revert to BIOS" with UEFI.
18:05:52 <Demosthenex> https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=258987
18:05:54 <VimDiesel> Title: 258987 – 13.0-RELEASE installer broken redundancy with UEFI and ZFS
18:06:09 <Demosthenex> oh i just told the bios to use legacy mode and disabled uefi
18:06:11 <Demosthenex> and reinstalled
18:06:18 <Demosthenex> i think i reinstalled like 4 times tweaking
18:06:26 <Demosthenex> and then i beat the snot out of the disk redundancy
18:06:29 <Demosthenex> i'm very pleased
18:06:29 <debdrup> UEFI isn't disabled, "legacy-mode" is UEFI-CSM.
18:06:36 <Demosthenex> ah.
18:06:54 <debdrup> It's UEFI that's emulating the INT 0x17 call, which is the way that most BIOS' boot.
18:06:57 <Demosthenex> well freebsd could tell. when i had the bios in "bios" mode, it's text only in teh boot screen. UEFI in bios had the graphical loader
18:07:04 <Demosthenex> yep
18:08:01 <ngortheone> so rctl needs kern.racct.enable=1 to work, but login.conf has no mention of this sysctl. does this mean that login.conf resource limits work in some different way?
18:08:46 <debdrup> A real BIOS only works if your CPU is starting in realmode, whereas UEFI starts in longmode and doesn't ever drop below that.
18:10:28 <Demosthenex> debdrup: greek to me. i haven't done intel assembly since highschool. but i can talk about making storage reliable all day
18:10:30 <debdrup> ngortheone: rctl uses an entirely different mechanism than the ones you can define in login.conf and display/set via limits(1).
18:11:45 <debdrup> If memory serves, rctl used to be called "resource containers" to distinguish it a bit more.
18:11:47 <Demosthenex> i was even more thrilled with the gmirror man page. so common sense
18:12:43 <debdrup> ngortheone: https://wiki.freebsd.org/Hierarchical_Resource_Limits#Implementation_details
18:12:44 <VimDiesel> Title: Hierarchical_Resource_Limits - FreeBSD Wiki
18:13:43 <debdrup> Oh, resource containers were an intermediary name. Hierarchical resource limits was the original name.
18:14:21 <drobban> having trouble with my "das keyboard" and swedish layout. trying to type gt & lt symbols. But I get ‹ and › instead... =) any good ideas on how to solve this?
18:15:19 <drobban> in linux and previously in openbsd (as far as I can remember). I was able to produce the symbols with alt-gr+shift+z and x
18:15:20 <debdrup> drobban: are you sure the das keyboard implements the HID classes properly? Lots of newer keyboards that do n-key rollover have a rather nasty habit of making a mess of the HID specification.
18:15:39 <drobban> debdrup: oooh, not sure.
18:15:51 <debdrup> N-key rollover on USB isn't really doable within the HID spec, if memory serves.
18:16:04 <drobban> okey.
18:16:27 <drobban> any ideas on how to error
18:16:31 <drobban> search it
18:17:42 <debdrup> No clue.
18:18:00 <debdrup> I suspect you'll need to talk with the engineers who built the keyboard.
18:20:29 <drobban> =D
18:31:05 <drobban> how can I make x run with the same keymap as console. The mapping seems to work fine in console
18:45:27 <debdrup> Oh, it's xorg that's causing problems? I thought it was FreeBSD.
18:45:40 <debdrup> Xorg has nothing to do with FreeBSD other than that it's provided in FreeBSD Ports
18:46:27 <drobban> you are right
18:46:29 <debdrup> I think you might be able to use the xf86-input-evdev driver.
18:46:59 <debdrup> Although I'm not entirely sure if that applies to the character map.
18:47:25 <debdrup> Oh wait, it's for v4l2 devices.
18:47:51 <debdrup> Nothing to do but try and mess with xorg keyboard mapping then, I suspect.
18:47:59 <drobban> I do run with evdev. get different result between freebsd and debian with the same setxkbmap
18:48:38 <drobban> freebsd seems to give the "correct" - unfortunately for me =D
18:48:39 <debdrup> I'm not really sure I'm qualified to help with xorg-related stuff, as I use wayland+sway (launched using the ly display manager)
18:48:53 <drobban> check =)
18:59:58 <last1> with zfs mirror devices, is data read from both devices mirrored ? or just the 'main' one ?
19:00:28 <Demosthenex> can you rephrase the question?
19:01:23 <Kobaz> Demosthenex: I think what the question is... does zfs do parallel reads
19:01:55 <Kobaz> like if you're asking for an 8k block, does it read 4k from A and 4k from B
19:02:08 <Kobaz> Some mirroring systems will do that.. some mirroring systems will read from the 'primary' only
19:03:25 <Demosthenex> that's a great way to put it
19:09:02 <last1> correct
19:09:08 <debdrup> last1: the only way to ensure every record on every device is read is through scrub, but to answer the specifics of your question, whichever disk first returns an answer that matches the checksum is the one that it gets read from as)
19:10:17 <last1> is that true of zfs only or are you aware of hardware implementations that can do different reads on all mirror devices ?
19:10:54 <last1> so if I have a 10 drive raid 10, it would read different parts of the file from all 10 drives at once
19:11:19 <debdrup> I avoid hardware RAID like the plague, because it's just software RAID written by someone who used to work for the company, but they're still builting it out of his home directory because it's so brittle that if they move it it breaks.
19:11:49 <debdrup> last1: that's how most striped mirrors work, yes - otherwise, you wouldn't get the increased IOPS from using striped mirrors.
19:12:25 <Demosthenex> debdrup: well... unless you're using a giant flash array that does 750k iops. then you might stick to hw raid ;]
19:12:39 <debdrup> Most hardware RAID is a RTOS running on a ~500MHz MIPS CPU (or maybe ARM nowadays).
19:12:40 <last1> ah ok, and would you happen to know why zfs doesn't read like that ?
19:12:43 <debdrup> Demosthenex: absolutely not.
19:12:52 <debdrup> ZFS or bust.
19:12:57 <debdrup> last1: it does.
19:13:34 <debdrup> Remember, the data is striped across the mirrors.
19:15:02 <last1> yes, but if I have to read a 1 GB file striped across 8 mirrors. I want to read block 1 from mirror1-A, block 2 from mirror2-B, etc
19:15:24 <last1> you said right now zfs just requests a read block and one of the mirorred drives answers fastest, it will go with that
19:15:44 <last1> it's not really using both mirrored devices for independent reads (?)
19:15:49 <last1> or have I misunderstood
19:16:00 <debdrup> last1: for a striped pair of mirrors, it'll read in the pattern you described because that's how the data was written.
19:16:19 <last1> err, sorry
19:16:25 <debdrup> Your first question was about mirrors only, not striped mirrors.
19:16:27 <last1> I meant block1 from mirror1-A, block2 from mirror1-B
19:18:15 <debdrup> When a series of zfs records is written to a striped pair of mirrors, it writes the first record to mirror0 then the the second record to mirror1, and so on and so forth. When you then read that data, the reads will be striped as a function of how they were written.
19:18:43 <debdrup> If it didn't work like that, there wouldn't be an IOPS speedup in using striped mirrors.
19:18:52 <last1> yes, that's at the mirror level
19:18:59 <last1> but each mirror is made up of two ( or more ) devices
19:19:06 <last1> with identical copies of the data
19:19:21 <last1> can't reads be leveraged against those copies in parallel ?
19:19:32 <debdrup> That doesn't make sense.
19:20:19 <last1> hmm, maybe I'm imagining things, let me rephrase
19:20:21 <debdrup> A striped mirror is two sets of mirrors where one pair receives half of the writes, the other pair receives the other half of the writes.
19:20:25 <debdrup> That's how it's always worked.
19:21:25 <debdrup> Are you suggesting you want mirrored stripes?
19:22:08 <last1> no no, so with striped mirrors, I have copies of my stripes
19:22:26 <last1> can't those copies be read in parallel ?
19:22:32 <debdrup> What would that achieve?
19:22:41 <last1> I'm guessing more speed ?
19:23:17 <last1> right now I believe only one member of the mirror gets hit with all the requests and the other sits (almost) idle, doing just copies of the first one
19:23:17 <debdrup> You'd have to have some way of interleaving the two datastreams, and I'm not sure that could be done reliably.
19:23:44 <debdrup> Reads don't exhaust disks, unless you buy disks so cheap that they're not worth the money you paid for them.
19:24:14 <last1> ok, so to recap: I am correct that only one member of the mirror gets hit with most requests, right ?
19:24:25 <debdrup> No.
19:24:40 <last1> right, it's the one that answers quickest
19:25:05 <debdrup> Yes, and statistically that's a 50/50 if they're the exact same make and model with the same firmware et cetera ad nauseum.
19:27:28 <CrtxReavr> debdrup, that's going to cost you a demerit.
19:27:35 <debdrup> CrtxReavr: what.
19:28:07 <CrtxReavr> Using "et cetera" and "ad nauseum" in the same sentence.
19:29:33 <debdrup> "Et cetera ad nauseum" means "and so forth until the point of nausea".
19:30:04 <sphex> last1: but if you have multi-threaded reads, they are going to be spread out on both mirrors. but single-threaded reads, probably not in practice. I think it would depend on read-aheads acting like concurrent reads of sorts. but it doesn't seem to increase the read bandwidth in practice. probably depends on a ton of stuff though. possibly depends on fragmentation even.
19:31:05 <debdrup> sphex: it's all pointless, because there's much easier ways to depessimise performance on NVMe disks (which ZFS isn't especially good at utilizing, because it was designed about two decades ago, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8sl8gj9UnA).
19:31:07 <VimDiesel> Title: Scaling ZFS for NVMe - Allan Jude - EuroBSDcon 2022 - YouTube
19:31:50 <debdrup> CrtxReavr: the two words are not synonymous.
19:32:13 <CrtxReavr> Didn't say they were.
19:32:30 <debdrup> sphex: and rotational media would be depessimized by the fact that reading data off the platter against the speed of rotation is different from reading it with the direction of rotation.
19:32:36 <CrtxReavr> Though I think they're phrases, not words.
19:32:38 <debdrup> CrtxReavr: then I'm not sure what your point is.
19:32:54 <debdrup> CrtxReavr: pedantry will get you nowhere.
19:33:02 <CrtxReavr> it was a joke. . . lighten up.
19:33:38 <Kobaz> debdrup: I think it was your pedantry that started it :)
19:33:48 * Kobaz grabs some popcorn
19:34:23 * Kobaz goes back to git-diff'ing
19:35:20 <debdrup> Kobaz: I suggest you find anything better to do than proking people.
19:36:08 <Kobaz> proking? is that a word?
19:36:20 <sphex> debdrup: my understanding is that the read-ahead would have to be very large to consistently speed up single-threaded mirrored reads. because it works on raid-z, it does speed up single-threaded reads. if you interleave the reads enough, it could have a similar effect on mirrors. but on NVME yeah I can assume it's a whole different story. kind of crazy how fast these things can be.
19:36:41 <Kobaz> looks like proking makes vehicle transmissions
19:36:52 <debdrup> s/proking/provoking/
19:37:10 <debdrup> Multiplayer vi still doesn't implement regexs though.
19:37:22 * CrtxReavr prokes Kobaz with a froke.
19:37:32 <Kobaz> oh dear
19:38:12 <debdrup> sphex: take some time to watch Allans talk, it's quite informative (as one might expect).
19:39:07 <last1> are there other FS's which are faster on nvme than zfs ?
19:39:58 <CrtxReavr> FAT32.
19:40:07 <debdrup> UFS is faster than ZFS on NVMe.
19:40:11 <debdrup> That doesn't mean it's better.
19:40:22 <sphex> debdrup: yeah I will later.
19:41:56 <debdrup> Having "speed" be the only factor of importance in a conversation about filesystems, that ought to include data availability, administrative ease, and many other subjects feels.. lacking, to say the least.
19:43:34 <sphex> ah always nice to see that ZFS is still getting improved.
19:43:50 <last1> debdrup: I was just following up on your comment from above: there's much easier ways to depessimise performance on NVMe disks (which ZFS isn't especially good at utilizing, because it was designed about two decades ago,
19:44:00 <debdrup> Preventing data corruption ought to be the most important thing that a filesystem should do, if you ask me.
19:44:11 <last1> and I equaled performance with speed
19:45:27 <debdrup> last1: depessiming performance means making things go faster, but the important part of that sentence that was unsaid (because I thought it needn't be said) is that ZFS has a proven record with first priority as mentioned above.
19:45:52 <debdrup> ZFS has a pretty good track record when it comes to preventing data corruption.
19:46:33 <last1> it does, I only survived an unexpected power outage due to our bkp server running zfs
19:46:45 <last1> our ufs file servers took 3 days to complete fsck
19:47:01 <last1> ( years ago, using hdd )
19:48:11 <megaTherion> good ol' fsck
19:49:55 <debdrup> Another example of a piece of software getting things right is Postgres. Unlike other databases that shall remain nameless, it was written to be ACID compliant first, and then focus got shifted onto making it performant.
19:50:16 <Kobaz> aaahahaa
19:50:41 <Kobaz> mysql has a nice long and fun history of being silently failing or broken in some way
19:51:04 <Kobaz> It's gotten a lot better...
19:51:18 <debdrup> That wasn't really my point, though.
19:51:27 <megaTherion> mysql... no thanks
19:51:55 <Kobaz> mysql... well, being stable wasn't the primary goal
19:52:07 <Kobaz> or enforce any kind of compliance... so yeah
20:01:36 <V_PauAmma_V> Being acid is a good way to date a base.
20:02:33 <CrtxReavr> Kobaz are you alleging that Oracle's acquisition of MySQL was a good thing?
20:03:46 <Kobaz> CrtxReavr: I haven't followed it much since we switched to postgres.  I think making it more of a proper database would have happened regardless who owned it.... me personally I would rather have more things more community-based and less controlled by corporate
20:04:48 <Kobaz> But those good-natured community projects crumble under the weight of selling out for millions of dollars.. and it's hard to blame them.. that's a lot of friggin money
20:05:36 <Kobaz> But now we have maria which is basically mysql-community continued... so in the end it probably didn't matter a whole lot
20:07:05 <yourfate> anyone self-hosting a matrix homeserver?
20:07:12 <last1> true, but not everything needs to be perfect from the beginning
20:07:21 <last1> and 95% of small business cases do just fine with mysql
20:07:26 <debdrup> yourfate: I'm not sure that question belongs in #FreeBSD
20:07:51 <yourfate> I wanted to ask if one of those is easier to set up / better supported on freeBSD
20:07:54 <yourfate> as my server runs that :D
20:08:12 <yourfate> like, one of the different server implementations
20:10:12 <Kobaz> last1: we started with mysql, and then moved to firebird when interbase got open sourced, and then ran into tons of limitations and then switched the postgres and never looked back.  Had I known what I know now, I would have done postgres from the getgo no questions asked
20:10:29 <Kobaz> and i would never recommend mysql for anyone after what I went through... heh
20:12:18 <Kobaz> sure it's fast and easy to use, but at what cost when you outgrow it and need an actual properly acid compliant database with things like transaction safe DDL and whatnot... you'll be surprised how fast you need that stuff
20:18:43 <yourfate> ah, dendride is in pkg even
20:21:03 <CrtxReavr> Kobaz, from my experience, the vast majority of what's done with SQL can be accomplished with SQLite, faster and more reliably.
20:21:23 <Kobaz> depends what you're doing... sqlite can only have one writer at a time
20:21:34 <CrtxReavr> There's certainly implementations that need more, but the majority of SQL deployments are needless overkill.
20:21:51 <Kobaz> quickbooks could use some sqlite
20:22:03 <Kobaz> that would be a million percent upgrade
21:58:13 <Kit_Leopold> Hello! It's me again with my questions from a newbie learning the FreeBSD operating system. Yesterday I installed the FreeBSD operating system on a VirtualBox virtual machine. I have a question about the kernel of the system. Please tell me why the /kernel.old/ directory appeared in the /boot/ directory, despite the fact that I did not build a new kernel? When you turn on a virtual machine with the FreeBSD operating system, in the
21:58:13 <Kit_Leopold> operating system bootloader in paragraph 6 there is an option to select a kernel between "defaul/kernel" and "kernel.old".
22:00:10 <debdrup> Kit_Leopold: there's absolutely nothing bad about having a kernel.old directory (though I can't tell you exactly where it comes from).
22:01:19 <yuripv> did you run freebsd-update?
22:02:18 <Kobaz> gotta update those updates
22:03:51 <Kit_Leopold> I ran the "freebsd-update fetch" and "freebsd-update install" commands right after installing the system.
22:04:09 <debdrup> That'll probably be it, then.
22:04:13 <morte_> Kit_Leopold: that's the reason
22:05:09 <Kit_Leopold> Oh, I beg your pardon, as I myself could not understand this reason.
22:12:57 <CrtxReavr> Kit_Leopold, is this kernel.old directory populated?
22:16:19 <Kit_Leopold> CrtxReavr: Yes, there are many ".ko" files.
22:16:34 <debdrup> There's probably also a kernel file.
22:17:39 <CrtxReavr> I didn't read the scroll well. .
22:17:50 <CrtxReavr> But I concurr it was probably freebsd-update that did that.
22:18:23 <Kit_Leopold> debdrup: Yes, in this directory there is a kernel file called "kernel" without extension.
22:19:43 <debdrup> That'd be the kernel binary, yes.
22:23:06 <Kit_Leopold> I ran the command "diff -r /boot/kernel/ /boot/kernel.old/" in the console and saw the changes that were made during the system update that I called with the commands "freebsd-update fetch" and "freebsd-update-install". Thank you all for your help, you helped me a lot with solving this riddle.
22:24:02 <debdrup> https://cgit.freebsd.org/src/commit/?id=48bfd3597654 Neat!
22:24:04 <VimDiesel> Title: src - FreeBSD source tree
23:08:58 <yuripv> "Print the current program version and exit. Don't use this option."
23:09:05 <yuripv> now i really need to try it