00:04:25 Hi, I am trying to do to do a make buildworld of the releng/13.1 branch without modifications on a PowerBook G4 12" (powerpc) and it segfaults during compilation. http://bsd.to/bb9T This happens on 13.0-RELEASE and on 13.1, meaning it's not possible to upgrade from source without reinstalling. 00:04:26 Title: dpaste/bb9T (Plain Text) 00:05:50 What additional info is needed for a bug report and how do I get that? I tried getting a trace with gdb and lldb but was unsuccessful trying to make them automatically attach to the right processes. 00:07:50 Has anyone else tried upgrading from source on powerpc? Or has this never been tested on actual hardware and I am the only person in the world insane enough to wait ~30 hours for a build to fail? :P 00:09:51 And in case someone wonders: 867 MHz single-core 32-bit PowerPC CPU (7455 rev 3.3), 610 M RAM. 00:10:52 bendodroid: you don't have to wait 30 hours 00:11:47 rtprio: what do you mean? I meant a fresh compile takes up to 30 hours for the error to occur. 00:11:48 how much swap do you have? 00:11:53 2G 00:11:54 I'd say a stack backtrace on the coredump file would definitely help. See https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/developers-handbook/tools/#debugging if you need an example for getting one. 00:11:55 Title: Chapter 2. Programming Tools | FreeBSD Documentation Portal 00:12:13 make NO_CLEAN=yes NO_CLEANDIR=yes buildworld will rsume from where you were 00:15:23 rtprio: Oh, seems I was missing the NO_CLEANDIR option when I tried to continue. Will try that. 00:15:49 it won't start at the exact statement but it should save quite a bit of build 00:17:11 V_PauAmma_V: The problem I had with getting the trace is that when running make with lldb/gdb I didn't find a way to make them attach to the new process when make execs cc etc. and to automatically return to the make process when cc exits successfully. 00:20:13 I can use "set follow-exec-mode new" to automatically attach to the new process when make execs cc, but once cc exits, I didn't find a way to have it automatically re-attach to make to then attach to the next spawned compile job 00:20:36 That's why I specifically suggested "on the coredump file". 00:22:26 Oh, I see. My rc.conf contains dumpdev="AUTO". I was under the impression this enables coredumps to /var/crash but no coredumps appear there. What should I do to get one? 00:24:47 Look for a "llvm-tblgen.core" file with a recent creation timestamp. That's the coredump file for the process. (dumpdev is for panic kernel dumps.) 00:35:58 Ah, makes sense. Is there a central directory for the coredumps? Or are they put in the processe's working directory? Which would mean either /usr/src/ or /usr/obj I guess? 00:38:34 The working directory, I think. 00:41:10 Ok, thanks for the help and the tips. I think I can continue on my own for now :) 00:41:21 You're welcome. 00:59:18 bendodroid: /var/crash is for the kernel crashing, not processes 01:11:26 It would be swell if "pkg" would produce a single "port currently does not have a maintainer" note for multiple packages instead of one per package #wish_list 01:17:07 hey all, I am logging on via ZNC on a remote server, nothing interesting there ... but the remote server has ipv6 and ipv4, so I set: ip6addrctl_enable="YES" ip6addrctl_policy="ipv4_prefer" in rc.conf; but even so ... 01:17:08 01:17, * [daemon] is connecting from *@2001:41d0:801:1000::1e9e 2001:41d0:801:1000::1e9e 01:17:19 it appears to be ignored 01:21:23 hey daemon 01:22:48 hello ClaudioM 01:25:24 does znc not have something like a '-4' ? 01:26:36 possibly, I also could just tell my nameserver to refuse to return AAAA addresses 01:27:00 but I would have though setting a preference like that in rc.conf would somehow inform all applications to try ipv4 first 01:27:11 i assume you `service ip6addrctl restart` already 01:27:19 yep 01:28:09 that being said the reason I do not want ipv6 for irc is that last time I used it, it was a bit ... unstable i.e. connection drops every few hours 01:28:12 maybe its improved 01:28:40 that was back on freenode and all 01:30:03 ah ha there is a workaround for znc though, I can tell it to bind 0.0.0.0 for outgoing connections; by default it will try :: then 0.0.0.0 04:43:15 hello :) 04:43:54 do you know if it is possible to run X session from shrc or bashrc files? Let me explain this question. 04:45:27 I wrote a dialog script that shows after tty login (no login manager). The script asks what to run, icewm, i3, tmux, sh, bash. And I can't run X sessions from this script (Display or X errors). After this, script ends, tty show up and I can type startx succesfuly. 04:45:46 what may be a reason of these X errors? 04:47:36 What error do you get? Something about need to start X11 system with escalated privileges? 04:48:18 no. Timeout about connecting to Display. 04:48:50 ( Hunh ) 04:49:24 i use functions "icewm" and "i3". These functions are included into shrc. 04:49:53 .oO( Wonder if login process is not complete ) How do try to start X11 session from those functions? 04:50:17 so the commands are just "icewm" in tty and dialog eighter. 04:50:39 icewm do: startx ~/.icewm/etc/xinitrc 04:50:51 ~/.icewm/etc/xinitrc loads ~/.xinitrc 04:51:22 and "icewm" works fine when typed from hand 04:52:02 i think dialog script doesn't work because shrc didnt finish yet. 04:52:16 Yeah, that is what I am thinking 04:53:06 so the script probably should be a system service exactly like login manager :| 04:55:03 At that point just as well use some display manager 04:55:25 i will search for something easy to configure 04:55:34 maybe some tty login manager 04:56:04 easy to configure because I need use my functions 04:56:47 You also have the option to turn the functions into shell scripts 04:57:14 yes 04:57:21 it is an option 04:57:51 but first, login manager must be easy to configure to use exactly these script to start x sessions 04:58:28 will think about it ;) 05:00:57 thanks for talk ;) 05:02:15 🤝 05:02:19 btw: I wonder if it is possible to ask for firefox-91 05:02:38 it would be great to have 91 version in repo 05:03:03 version 91 works fine. Newer are slow. 05:03:49 i had to update to newest, because 91 stoped working after upgrade 05:04:11 Create a VM of older version of FreeBSD, install there from ports 05:04:27 i cant compile firefox 05:05:03 i use 32 bit machine and compiling firefox require 64 bit. Another reason is that I use old computer. 05:07:01 VM of some old OS of whatever persuasion seems to be the only way from here 05:07:22 hmmmm 05:07:39 old computer + vm = slow old firefox ;) 05:11:30 Oh I forgot one thing that without CPU support for virtualization, thus in software, VM in general will run tremendously slow 05:12:02 Sorry 06:02:06 What is the best place for gnu? 06:02:53 Not here 06:03:17 Really? 06:03:54 I expected this big thing about hating on linux and the real gnu supporters are bsd which is freebsd? 06:04:09 (im here to learn obviously) 06:05:55 nothing wrong with Linux 06:06:51 I happen to like Debian quite a bit 06:14:10 i don't hate linux, just systemd and networkmanager 06:14:30 yes i hate systemd its so verbose and esoteric 06:15:27 rtprio: I run Debian on my workstation. No systemd, no networkmanager, no pulseaudio. 06:15:54 i dont have a lot experience with nix but really interested love the command line and its been over a lot of years though i started in fedora fc4 i think it was and back then idk i dont remember systemd from back then init scripts and runlevels were the things to learn anyway 06:16:07 systemd and pulseaudio ;) 06:16:32 oh no ... i was trying to learn on a chromebook for a while and audio was so bad 06:16:36 sadly, freebsd isn't free from pulseaudio 06:17:32 seems like you have to have kernel level forensic knowledge 06:17:37 mason: debian without systemd? Isn't it Devuan? 06:17:45 There is #freebsd-social channel for all the non-FreeBSD conversation needs 06:18:00 i quit Linux when LXC begun to require systemd 06:18:10 so I use jails now 06:18:59 and jails are much better in my opinion :) 06:19:55 i watched and interesting google talk about cgroups and jails and namespaces really interesting stuff it made me feel like we are users are basically working the "kernel space" of yesterday almost-like 06:20:01 an* 06:20:30 working IN the kernel space of yesterday 06:21:02 obv didnt really know what they were talking about but all that complexity really pulls me in really 06:21:09 i may work in the kernel space of stone age if it works fine ;) 06:21:17 wikan: Since you're not in -social, no, plain old Debian: https://github.com/ChibaPet/install-debian-zfs-sysvinit 06:21:18 Title: GitHub - ChibaPet/install-debian-zfs-sysvinit: Install Debian on ZFS, with sysvinit, optionally encrypted. 06:22:05 wikan: Also, LXC doesn't require systemd: https://github.com/ChibaPet/lxc-utils 06:22:06 Title: GitHub - ChibaPet/lxc-utils: Tools for composing content for containers. 06:22:29 yet^ 06:22:37 That said, please join #freebsd-social as I *am* off-topic with this. 06:22:48 it is possible to run without systemd but it is much harder than year ago 06:23:50 Actually... Past time for me to become a pumpkin. G'night all. o/ 06:24:00 it is because cgroups use systemd services. 06:24:14 wikan: Other way around. 06:25:04 and docs support only systemd way of doing LXC things 06:25:09 im trying to be in -social now but thats really interesting to me you know like the inner circle scientist stuff from yesterday that they were really working on/with is now like a norm that i get to experience thats really cool 06:25:26 what is -social? 06:25:39 wikan: /join #freebsd-social 06:25:45 ohh 07:04:58 hello people someone can help to me i wiil try run from freebsd 13.1 the re::engine::RE2 and i get error https://bsd.to/E1DK 07:05:00 Title: dpaste/E1DK (Plain Text) 07:06:09 ok well i guess i scared someone away 07:06:48 i just want to say i love tech, tech in of itself isnt good or bad 07:56:19 someone please can help? 08:15:14 I managed to get a 6.6M kernel, stripped to 5.4M. I guess I should reboot into it now? 08:26:46 and I need to load a kernel module for ahci. 08:48:07 I have to assume kernel modules consume wired memory? 08:50:28 on this episode of misconceptions about freebsd 08:56:26 what provides the /dev/ufsid things? I built a minimal kernel and my configuration depends on this, which isn't available anymore. it seems I was able to boot by supplying ada0a at the mountroot prompt. 09:06:56 I managed to boot with 81 09:07:01 81MB of RAM 09:42:21 wait, how very pointless 09:42:34 IT HAS 8 VCPUS.. AND THAT LITTLE AMOUNT OF RAM 09:42:44 what the hell 10:00:39 Reinhilde: what machine is this?? 10:01:14 meena: qemu. 10:01:29 meena: These results aren't realistic at all. 10:04:58 Reinhilde, "git grep -F ufsid" suggests glabel(8) is involved in filling /dev/ufsid/. What value does sysctl kern.geom.label.ufsid.enable have? 10:05:38 V_PauAmma_V: I figured out I needed to load geom_label, thanks (the sysctl was 404). 10:05:48 (as in it did not exist) 10:06:51 *nod* 13:15:03 Hey all, how are you? What's the latest version of FreeBSD kernel that you have on 12.3? it is 12.3-RELEASE-p6? 13:20:22 i'm doing fine, thanks for asking. 13:52:46 antranigv, -p6 for kernel, yes. 14:50:00 someone before was talking about mailcap and mutt.. when I get a html mail, it opens in mutt as text instead of calling links.. any ideas on how to get it to call links? I have the mailcap in place. 14:57:10 maybe mutt only detects mails as html if it's an html attachment not just Content-Type: text/html; in the mail header? 14:59:10 ah never mind. I had to add: auto_view text/html in the muttrc :) 15:48:45 hi.. php74 did eol on freebsd. there is no way to get it from packages? 15:49:50 Not from the official repos, no 15:50:23 You'll have to de-deprecate and build them yourself 15:56:20 so there is no archive for packages? 16:05:00 but ports archive? 16:19:47 ports, git checkout 27ac371f93d36f77f00b8da261e496904184dd33 16:19:56 i will get it from there 16:46:46 ivaat: generally, it seems inadvisable to run unsupported / unmaintained software… 16:47:39 so unless you're running this on a computer with absolutely no Internet access, i would rethink the effort 16:49:10 it is in jail and all known XSS, SQL injections are filtered in nginx 16:49:27 sry, just general software does not come along so fast to support php 8.x 16:50:05 12 nov was last php 7.4.33 update so i think like one year is ok to run it at least :) 16:53:09 ivaat: how hard could it be to upgrade? (n.b.: i have not followed php development since 7.2) 16:54:44 https://www.php.net/manual/en/migration80.incompatible.php wat. 16:54:46 Title: PHP: Backward Incompatible Changes - Manual 16:54:50 i don't how hard it is.. it is specific enterpise php software.. i am not programmer myself. i just panid and use admin mode ;) 16:55:07 and project must be live next week 16:55:15 on development they will do upgrade too 16:58:28 -panid+panic 16:59:13 -how+know 16:59:17 * ivaat palmface 16:59:37 How come that clear_tmp_enable is not enabled by default? 17:02:04 tct: excellent question. 17:05:07 I need some help. Trying to use an Intel wireless device (iwm0) following the handbook (https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/advanced-networking/#network-wireless) but getting error when starting netif service: "iwm0: device timeout, dumping device error log, errlog not found, skipping" 17:05:08 Title: Chapter 33. Advanced Networking | FreeBSD Documentation Portal 17:05:48 harpia, which card? 17:06:49 (haha, palmface) 17:07:44 tct: Intel Dual Band Wireless AC 9560 17:11:55 harpia, you might wanna give iwlwifi a try 17:12:29 I run a 9560 successfully, as iwlwifi. 17:12:34 jup 17:12:45 nice to see you on irc, cracauer :) 17:15:57 Is this all I need to do? https://wiki.freebsd.org/WiFi/Iwlwifi#I_have_an_iwm.284.29_supported_device_and_want_to_try_iwlwifi.284.29 17:15:58 Title: WiFi/Iwlwifi - FreeBSD Wiki 17:16:01 Nice to see you, too. 17:16:40 harpia, you'll need to run 13 for sure. personally, I track stable/13 on my laptop solely for the purpose of having the latest iwlwifi efforts available. 17:16:54 I'm on 13 17:17:05 harpia, if you go down that route, subscribing to wireless@ ML would be a good idea, I guess. 17:17:07 meena: that PHP 8.0 incompat table is hilarious with the '==' operator. Makes for sloppy programming. :) 17:17:49 pertho: I've taken this to #freebsd-social 17:26:59 Will iwlwifi eventually replace iwm? Just trying to understand what they are. 17:31:05 harpia, man iwlwifi(4) 17:31:07 > iwlwifi will be a successor to iwm(4) and may superseed that driver in 17:31:07 the future. It still complements the iwn(4) driver which supports older 17:31:07 chipsets. 17:35:07 it's not a successor, iwm is based on native code where iwlwifi transforms linux code 17:36:25 also bear in mind, these days, a lot of heavy lifting is done in the 802.11 stack with the firmware 17:58:14 Is their an archive of older 14-CURRENT ISO image snapshots? none of the once on the FTP site are currently bootable on my system. 18:24:54 What boot problem do you have? Many can be fixed with bootloader settings. 18:32:34 Boot up halts during the hardware probe: http://venus.morante.net/downloads/unibia/screenshots/freebsd/R281-T91/14-CURRENT-4dcc6baddb4/boot1.txt 18:34:56 I forgot to save my good kernel, lol 18:36:15 My plan was to either grab a bootable one from a more recent snapshot, or build one using the live CD 18:42:10 How old do you need? Maybe I have one. 18:44:27 Anything after July 4 2022 (commit hash: ec32fc2af52) or before what's on the FTP site. Worst case is I try to boot from some older ISO's that I have from early last year. 18:45:10 I have Jan 4 14-current right here. 18:45:14 it's aarch64 btw 18:45:25 oh 18:46:37 no worries, I'll just boot of one of my really old ones and try to rebuild my good kernel again. 18:47:03 I had wondered why the dmesg looked so strange. 18:49:55 There are a lot of Decembet-January images here: http://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/arm64/aarch64/ISO-IMAGES/14.0/ 18:49:56 Title: Index of /pub/FreeBSD/snapshots/arm64/aarch64/ISO-IMAGES/14.0/ 18:50:12 Yeah, I tried as far back to Dec 9 18:50:33 some change between July 4 and Dec 9 broke something 18:50:42 I am going to try and track down the commit 18:51:22 It should be possible to build a kernel using a live CD env, right? 18:51:50 Never tried. But I don't see why not. 18:52:10 What machine are you on that is broken? 18:53:09 it's an ARM64 server: R281-T91 made by Gigabyte Computer 18:54:17 Very cool. 18:54:40 I've been messing around with it for the last few years. FreeBSD hasn't been too stable on that hardware. I figure I would provide as much feedback as I can to help out 18:56:00 I'm sure it is much appreciated. Attractive machine. And apparently quite cheap. 18:56:28 just reading up on that hardware, seems very nice! 18:57:30 Wait, froogle display the wrong machine. Dunno what it costs. 18:58:22 It wasn't so bad, it was about 3k from where I got it. But it's normal cost is about 5-6 19:16:04 3k is an awesome price for that. 19:16:06 otis, ping 19:23:06 meena: I'm back at this bridging problem, I'm exploring potential options where just the main host is not acting as a gateway properly between the two bridge interfaces 19:23:34 meena: for example, I created a new epair and added that to bridge0 and bridge1 to see if other epairs on bridge0 would be able to route to bridge1, no dice yet 19:28:27 the route table on the host looks correct too, Basically the jails host can ping into any host off bridge0 or bridge1 19:32:21 rtyler: bizarre 19:33:40 i wonder how small the most minimal reproducer is we can construct 19:34:07 a number of articles I'm digging up are referencing vlans, which I know I wasn't using before, such as: https://bsdrp.net/documentation/examples/multi-tenant_router_and_firewall 19:34:08 Title: Multi-tenant router or firewall [BSD Router Project] 19:34:21 we can just use / or rescue as path to demonstrate 19:35:02 I also tried to set up a port forwarding rule in pf, and I cannot go from jail-on-bridge0 to postgres-in-bridge1 via the external interface, even though another machine can get to the postgresql port through that external interfacfe 19:36:03 rtyler, is this hitting https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268717 then? 19:36:05 Title: 268717 – [pf] rdr rules don't work for traffic originating at localhost 19:37:47 maybe :shrug: 19:40:53 rtyler: it feels very steep to have to use a vlan to do this basic a thing 19:41:09 agreed 19:42:21 I feel like vlan is for people who didn't sleep thru networking class in school 19:46:20 so watching tcpdumps there's nothing hitting bridge1 when I'm trying to go from a jail off bridge0, I'm going to reconnect my epair between those two and see if that changes it 19:47:58 meena: watching bridge0 it looks like the router for bridge0 jails (i.e. the host) isn't responding to arps telling who has the bridge1-based device 19:48:57 do the two bridges have different MACs? 19:49:15 yes, gist incoming 19:49:39 meena: https://gist.github.com/rtyler/08e3179a68b8831317f87b040b04da8c 19:49:40 Title: Some details from the jails host · GitHub 19:49:42 sounds like we have i bug 19:52:23 wait just one stinkin' second 19:52:36 nope, I was misreading my output, dangit 19:53:07 meena: welp, where to now boss :) 19:54:04 I have been thru this before, and doubted my sanity. but now we have three people failing at this, so i say we create a minimal reproducer and submit the bug 19:54:37 * meena points at daemon as the other person who's definitely not crazy or blind and has seen this 19:57:31 rtyler: you can also use more descriptive names, and IPs that are easily told apart, so people reading the bug don't go thru the "wait just one stinkin' second" process 19:58:31 sure maybe, gotta get my bugzilla account back, and also spin up a VM to create the repro case while I move this jail over to the one network :( 19:59:06 I can try, after im back home and my daughter is in bed 19:59:12 we're… late 20:00:44 heh, I'm assuing you're CET 20:01:08 PST here, so lots of time to wait around for buzilla ^_^ 20:01:30 rtyler: I moved tu Ireland recently 20:03:39 absolutely 20:18:32 going to try to reproduce this now, gives me something to stream abouht 20:41:22 cracauer: do you have to rebuild the kernel to make it work? https://wiki.freebsd.org/WiFi/Iwlwifi#Rebuilding_Kernel 20:41:23 Title: WiFi/Iwlwifi - FreeBSD Wiki 20:48:01 No, iwl on my 9560 worked with the default 14-current kernel. 20:48:52 rtyler: you stream? 20:49:05 meena: presently yes https://www.twitch.tv/agentdero 20:49:06 Title: Twitch 20:49:10 not regularly 20:49:46 * meena has literally never watched a stream 20:51:59 in my test environment I am pinging across these bridges, wtf 20:55:52 rtyler: love it. absolutely thrilled with this turn of events 20:58:29 quite perplexing, adding more jails now trying to find the changed variable 21:15:48 V_PauAmma_V: FYI: Your tip to look for .core files was correct, I found 3 make.core dumps and just opened the bug at https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268974 Thanks for your help :) 21:15:50 Title: 268974 – make buildworld fails with SIGSEGV on PowerBook G4 21:16:47 Nice. 21:17:25 I strangely enjoy being in #freebsd-bugs, which as VimDiesel post all the bugs that are created 21:21:32 meena: it seems to be related to the subnets I've chosen 21:22:51 with bridg0 is is 10.10.1.1/24 and bridge1 is 10.10.2.1/24, then it doesn't workj 21:23:13 bridge1 is 192.168.100.1/24 (for example) the routing works properly 21:25:59 How do you persist this across reboots? https://wiki.freebsd.org/WiFi/Iwlwifi#I_have_an_iwm.284.29_supported_device_and_want_to_try_iwlwifi.284.29 21:26:00 Title: WiFi/Iwlwifi - FreeBSD Wiki 21:31:34 Something like this? if_iwlwifi_load="YES" in /boot/loader.conf. And probably if_iwm_load="NO". 21:33:21 rtyler: that's still a bug, but now we've reduced it a lot 21:33:54 meena: definitely! I'm *super* perplexed by this 21:34:24 meena: what's your blog domain again, trying to find your jail post to share 21:38:20 rtyler: https://alpha.pkgbase.live/howto/fresh.html is not a blog 21:38:21 Title: Howto: Setting up a Fresh Install 21:38:59 meena: ah, thanks 21:39:01 it's funny how my advice of: make it easy to read led to discovering how it make it work 21:43:08 I'm trying some different netmasks now to isolate where the bug occurs 21:46:26 * meena calls her jails "isolates" because she's fascinated by languages and the concept of language isolates 21:48:17 meena: I think I have a theory 21:48:26 meena: when bridge0 and bridge1 share a /8 the routing doesn't work 21:48:35 meena: when bridge1 is on a different /8, it routes properly 21:48:40 this has been an interesting debugging experience @rtyler :D 21:49:58 rtyler: that's confusing because you don't use /8 in any stanza 21:50:25 z3uS: always fun when it takes several days to pin down 21:50:42 meena: basically if bridge0 and bridge1 are both in 10.xxx land, no routing 21:50:50 meena: bridge1 in 172.x or 192.x works fine 21:50:53 @meena lulz 21:51:07 oof, been slacking too much don't need @'s on IRC ;) 21:51:42 rtyler: im gonna need to 21:52:00 meena: after I write the bugzilla, I'll link you 21:52:03 look at the code, because that sounds like someone is worse at math than i am 21:52:16 network math. 21:53:01 z3uS: my client just gives me autocompletion for names that way in a nice GUI drop down 21:53:11 <3 21:53:28 I should really stop using kvirc with my znc at some point but I'm too lazy 21:54:45 I'm soon going to follow dch's https://reviews.freebsd.org/D38058 and port Thelounge.chat 21:54:46 Title: ⚙ D38058 www/hedgedoc: NEW PORT web-hosted markdown doc editor 22:34:28 meena: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268976 22:34:31 Title: 268976 – Traffic will not route across two bridges on the same /8 22:34:37 z3uS: since you were hanging about too ^ 22:39:19 bendodroid, you're welcome. And tangentially, "find /usr/obj '*.core' -print" saves you a pipe and (I think) some typing. 22:51:54 V_PauAmma_V thank you! <3 22:55:49 V_PauAmma_V, you need a -name before '*.core' ; and on the other hand the -print could be omitted 23:12:45 daemon: cc https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=268976 23:12:47 Title: 268976 – Traffic will not route across two bridges on the same /8 23:13:27 -print can be omitted, since ca 1989 23:13:52 (rough estimate) 23:15:30 heh 23:27:02 Always having -print is always "safe" though if you want it to print. Because it depends upon the find rules that come before it. 23:27:52 I sometimes get snagged by running a complicated find rule and then nothing gets printed. I look and then curse myself out for driving it wrong. 23:46:24 jilles, oops.