00:38:00 I also have had problems with the gtk toolkit and used the lucid widgets with emacs. 00:38:06 Until I switched back to the emacs-nox version full time. I did that and no longer have widget toolkit problems. :-) 00:39:15 meena, I think I understand the snags I hit if I am not a member of wheel. 00:39:17 I see that the wheel group restriction applies to su as described here. http://www.freebsdwiki.net/index.php/Wheel 00:39:18 Title: Wheel - FreeBSDwiki 00:39:44 When I install a fresh installation I have the base /usr/bin/su installed. If I log in as rwp and am not a member of wheel then I cannot su to root. 00:40:06 And if I cannot su to root then I cannot pkg install anything. Cannot install sudo for example. 00:40:33 Can log into a vt console as root and then as the root logged in user install pkg ports and sudo and such. 00:40:58 But I prefer to log in as me, rwp, and then use "su -" to become root as needed. And for that I must be in the wheel group. 00:41:13 But I think your point was that sudo does not have that same wheel restriction that su has. 00:43:16 True. But I can't get sudo installed yet without it (or logging in on a vt console as root) and so it feels very limiting without it. 00:44:17 Also I like to be able to read the /var/log/* files without needing to become root. Those are mostly group wheel. 00:44:43 So again being in the wheel group removes a limitation that otherwise is limiting by design, but feels frustrating. 00:51:37 rwp: you're right about wheel and su(1). 00:52:17 The su(1) man page says: "In particular, by default only users in the 'wheel' group can switch to UID 0 ('root')." 00:52:29 This may feel frustrating in some sense, I guess, but on a multi-user system, you probably want some way to restrict which users can become root. 00:52:38 One simple way to do that is to require membership in a particular group, in this case "wheel." 00:53:06 The man page further says: "This group requirement may be changed by modifying the “pam_group” section of /etc/pam.d/su. See pam_group(8) for details on how to modify this setting." 00:53:13 So if you'd like it to work some other way, you can probably arrange that. 00:54:53 jld, The wheel group is a designed in restriction that is debatable if it is needed or not. 00:55:05 I mean, we are debating it right here and now! So clearly it is debatable. :-) 00:55:33 I am not debating it ;-) I am just describing it. 00:55:50 The System V "I grew up on" didn't have a wheel group policy. And so I don't have this baked in feeling that it is needed. 00:56:21 I no longer remember how things worked on unixes I used before freebsd 00:56:29 Mostly I was describing it too. Because earlier in the scroll-back we were discussing if being a member of wheel when installing a new system is needed or not. 00:57:28 well, I remember how some things worked, just not whether, or if so, how, the ability to become was or wasn't restricted 00:57:31 I will say that when installing FreeBSD and at install time creating a user "rwp" that for me it is needed to add rwp to wheel or I won't be happy after I log in and try to "su -" to become root to "pkg install $bunchofstuff" 00:57:50 that's true 00:58:12 long-time habit for me is to add my account to wheel during installation 00:59:25 anyway, you seem clear on how it works so I'll leave it there 01:02:36 jld, Thanks for jumping in! Relatively speaking I am a newcomer to modern FreeBSD. But have used BSD in the past many years before. 01:03:31 rwp, happy to chat. maybe we'll cross paths here again sometime 01:40:04 daemon: i deliberately wanted to set options with my package 01:40:10 a binary wont suffice 01:58:14 so i installed gcc for something, but it didn't include header files to compile something. now i deleted it, but the port i was building (emacs) still sees a shared object file 01:58:27 i used pkg delete gcc 01:58:40 but.. it didn't apparently completely delete 01:59:00 i noticed /usr/local/lib/ had a gcc directory, no clue if that was there before 01:59:00 trying to mount windows disk on freebsd 13.1 01:59:06 ntfs-3g not working 01:59:28 is this safe to remove? is it a "bug" that i could fix maybe? 01:59:33 fuse: failed to open fuse device: No such file or directory 02:00:33 nekobit, Do you have another gcc installed? Check via: pkg info -x gcc 02:00:48 gcc11-11.3.0_5 02:00:52 hmm, i see 02:01:04 oh, is that an old version? 02:01:17 concrete_houses: what full command line did you use? 02:01:26 concrete_houses: kldload fuse 02:01:32 add 02:01:35 fusefs_enable="YES" 02:01:42 to /etc/rc.conf 02:01:46 nekobit: one of the ports you build probably required it 02:01:54 nekobit, Could have been installed for some package/port 02:02:17 nekobit: one of the ports you built probably required it; probably safe to remove. 02:02:26 hmm, so 02:02:44 `pkg install gcc' reports that i can install it (11_4) 02:02:47 ... until (that version) is required again 02:03:01 `pkg install gcc11` reports that it's already installed 02:03:51 sudo pkg upgrade doesn't report gcc being upgraded 02:04:04 im on FreeBSD 14 fyi 02:04:21 nekobit: are you trying to figure out why it was installed? 02:04:31 yeah 02:04:35 but im also wondering what the difference is 02:04:57 `pkg info gcc` reports nothing, so i assume it's an alias or something 02:05:07 (it is) 02:05:35 what is going on here? 02:05:39 the package name is gcc11; the one named gcc could be a diffrent version 02:06:00 gcc doesn't exist according to pkg info 02:06:16 grep pkg /var/log/message and look at the order that the packages were installed 02:06:29 something picked gcc11 as a dependancy 02:07:14 Dec 3 20:46:18 toomuchram pkg[36027]: gcc11-11.3.0_5 installed 02:07:16 Dec 3 20:46:18 toomuchram pkg[36027]: gcc-11_4 installed 02:07:18 Dec 3 20:50:35 toomuchram pkg[42932]: gcc-11_4 deinstalled 02:07:35 so i did lol, idk whats up here 02:07:55 or go to the port you just built and run make build-depends-list 02:08:49 or just delete gcc11 and get it out of your mind 02:08:55 /usr/ports/lang/gcc11 02:09:14 oh yeah, well i was compiling gcc11, never finished it. i scratched it 02:09:56 * rtprio shrugs. 02:10:03 ok, deleted it 02:11:53 rtprio: okay... its gone 02:12:09 i assume that the gcc11 installed multiple little packages? 02:12:16 it was still compiling stuff for gcc11 02:12:37 it considered gcc11 installed 02:12:47 i don't think so 02:13:00 weird, i guess i can't provide a full answer now 02:14:33 i have it too; i wonder why it was installed 02:15:04 why was gcc and gcc11 a thing? 02:15:16 oh, now it's not 02:15:23 the port is called gcc11, the pkg is called gcc 02:15:49 is there a reason for that ambiguity? 02:16:09 if you look in /usr/ports/lang you'll note there are many gcc versions 02:17:35 ok well, motif was buggy for emacs too 02:17:39 trying Xaw3d 02:17:56 speaking of, does `make config' usually force a recompile whenever i do `make' again? 02:18:08 this is my first port ive compiled so far... 02:18:18 it does not; you'll need to uninstall, make clean and make again 02:18:31 alright, thanks 02:18:40 i didnt do the uninstall part, hope that's fine. thanks for answering my questions mate 02:19:04 are u a dev? 02:19:11 well, it won't you install the new one until you remove the old one 02:19:23 no, i've just used freebsd since 1998 02:19:33 fair lol 02:19:36 or 1999 02:20:23 you mean it wont uninstall, say, the motif toolkit? makes sense to me. 02:20:36 I have 2 drives pulgged into usb 3 and transfer running about 25MB 02:20:45 seems slow both drive rated 400M 02:22:06 nekobit: also, yes, it won't uninstall the motif toolkit. but it also won't uninstall the emacs built for motif until you tell it to 02:22:38 i just ran `pkg uninstall open-motif' for now 02:22:56 probably didn't cleanup the open-motif build stuff, but its fine 02:23:53 seems Xaw3d as exactly what i wanted :-) 02:24:05 da1: 400.000MB/s transfers 02:24:21 da0: 400.000MB/s transfers 02:24:29 why am i only getting 25MB 02:24:34 using rsync? 02:24:46 with fuse. right? 02:24:51 yeah 02:24:53 fuse is just slow on fbsd 02:24:59 fooookkk 02:25:14 usb drives are just not great 02:25:15 I want the speed!!! 02:25:24 enjoy the wait 02:25:26 :( 02:25:39 I torrented 24 season 1-8 02:25:41 aw yeah 02:25:58 I want same show but with swirds or lightsabers 02:26:03 you write driver 02:26:06 or naginatas 02:26:12 concrete_houses: cool. welcome to 2001. 02:26:19 I should convince room mate to get rid windows 02:26:28 and watch movies in sitting room all bsd 02:26:41 nekobit: the emacs port selects gcc11 as a compiler, fyi 02:26:48 I wana go abck to 2001BC 02:26:50 rtprio: yeah i saw that 02:27:24 when i switched away from gentoo to freebsd recently, i used ext2 on a drive for backups thinking "oh well it should support my drive, ext2 might be common", the native ext2 module didn't work at all, had to use fuse, took 2 days 02:27:26 so if I have another usb drive with UFS 02:27:30 I will get great speed? 02:27:35 you should yeah 02:27:47 sweet 02:27:51 I am comign from archlinux 02:28:00 wich is freebsd biggest rival I thnk 02:28:04 congrats 02:28:08 slightly more up to date binaries 02:28:08 i don't know about that 02:28:21 ? 02:28:31 bsd needs let fookery with audio adn xorg screen size i notice 02:28:36 less 02:28:52 archlinux has very up to date binaries in is pcakcger 02:28:58 xorg screen size works fine, i don't know what you're on about 02:29:01 and supports smalltlk liek pharo.org 02:29:22 now i think freebsd did beat it on a latest postgresql binary one time so i looked bad sayign that one time 02:29:46 bsd is better than arch with x and audio 02:29:49 way better 02:29:57 archlinux is pain in nads 02:30:05 but once its confige 02:30:05 bsd != freebsd fyi 02:30:13 rolling release adn little more upt to date software 02:30:24 good point 02:30:26 fbsd 02:30:42 only survived non-feature-emphasized bsd? 02:31:11 sufficiently freebsd is the bsd 02:31:24 have you ninjas run freebsd on live sites with heavy transactions? 02:31:25 yeah yeah, history n stuff, i can't keep up with that 02:31:52 I heard some of the busiest sites run fbsd 02:32:12 but nowadays it seems applicable to separate them since it can be several things is what im saying 02:32:43 uhh, with the babble: I hopped over to FreeBSD for development purposes since I like UNIX-y and POSIX-y stuff, i've always used BSD-like distros. I've used FreeBSD around 3-4 years ago when i was younger, so glad to be back again 02:32:54 would also be cool to contribute to FreeBSD once i get more experienced 02:35:59 concrete_houses: iv never had heavy traffic 02:41:43 concrete_houses: i was asked once by intel junior engineer in the interview. I told him I would then look around aws pre-designs for stuffs like load-balancing 02:42:13 concrete_houses: I think he said something like I am wrong 02:42:45 concrete_houses: I smelled weird so I asked about LAMP 02:43:00 concrete_houses: He said he does not know what LAMP is 02:43:24 concrete_houses: I got rejected. old memory 02:43:34 intel interview? 02:44:11 yes this year 02:44:22 >old memory 02:44:42 yes because I think I applied hundreds after that 02:44:50 makes sense 02:45:25 it does not make sense. I think it is recent memory you're correct 02:46:33 i mean it make sense why you said old memory lol 02:46:41 such are the cases for job interviews 02:53:54 in terms of bsd, maybe it is more difficult for initial interviews 02:54:29 I was never asked any single thing about bsd even if I put it in my resume in the past 02:54:49 I think they really don't know what to ask. this is what i guess 02:57:19 what is the package for hald called? 02:58:55 Fudge: hal for embedded? 02:59:07 Fudge: what is that 02:59:10 hald is needed for xorg 02:59:21 as in /etc/rc.conf hald-enable="yes" 03:04:03 is that right? dbus, hald are needed to start xorg? 03:04:07 I do have not "hald" for Xorg 03:04:41 perhaps something else needs that🤷‍♂️ 03:05:03 oh right 03:05:12 Firefox cannot work without dbus 03:06:03 Fudge: this? https://www.freshports.org/sysutils/hal 03:06:04 Title: FreshPorts -- sysutils/hal: Hardware Abstraction Layer for simplifying device access 03:19:37 nekobit: actually I didn't get rejected right away. I was asked to make a presentation slides for all my projects in my resume and send it to them. I did it and sent them. Then, I got rejected. 03:37:18 parv: hello 03:37:39 mictty, Hi there 05:03:40 I am sick of being a janitor for retard MBA 05:03:54 MBA really are scum of the earth my grandpa is right 05:04:02 may he rest in peace 05:11:15 its so insulting when a tard who doesnt know how to do stuff is put in contorl of a proejct doesnt plan it well then calls you in to work some magic is the huge crap plastered mess they have crated 05:11:51 concrete_houses, Could you go to #freebsd-social for your ranting needs? 05:11:59 i am convinced more than ever that usury is the culprit and sql database is just a thing to anchor you to a product even postgres its hell to update later I think files and whatever alnguage win 05:12:04 oh ok 05:12:51 is there any way to speed up chrome? 05:13:12 like is there any kind of cacheing i can turn on? 05:13:29 I remember running squid one time.... like html file cache 05:13:37 bsd has a better one wahts it called again 05:13:43 varnish? 05:13:50 concrete_houses: if you do similar things over and over it goes fast due to jit's nature 05:14:56 concrete_houses: if you do similar things over and over it goes fast due to jit's nature 05:15:17 concrete_houses: I think I leared today 05:20:37 concrete_houses: I don't have MBA person near me but it sounds no good. 05:31:57 is it fine to use a system i installed as a jail with chroot? 05:32:07 considering i deleted the jail 05:32:29 jail was overkill and i was having issues configuring it, i just need it to run a project for development 05:32:48 i installed with `bsdinstall jail /to/path' 05:33:18 what does the `jail' bit actually do here? man page just says "suitable for use" 05:36:06 hmm, according to /usr/libexec/bsdinstall/jail, looks like it does a full on installation 05:36:52 would've thought it was more of a regular install to a directory, with some `jail' commands slapped on 05:37:50 umm, there isn't actually a mention of the jail command here at all... 05:39:31 (or any words that say "jail", fact of the matter) 05:39:43 isn't this just a "install to directory" step? why is it called a "jail" script? is this just a bad design choice? 05:40:08 bare in mind im a new user, so idk if there is a reason or not truly 05:40:51 the 'jail' option just has it not do disk partitioning or install a kernel 05:41:04 otherwise it's a normal install 05:41:10 i get that, i'm mostly peeved at the naming here 05:41:16 this is perfect for chroots 05:41:34 in most cases you should use jail rather than chroot 05:41:55 in most cases indeed, im leaving out i want a regular chroot 05:42:26 don't forget that you need to mount a devfs inside the jail/chroot tree 05:42:26 i used a jail initially, but i found it was overkill when i had troubles configuring it for networking. i really just need a chroot. im doing local development 05:42:55 and you should in general make it a very limited devfs, using the provided set of rules for jails 05:44:10 i agree for other use cases, but im really not itching security at all here 05:44:48 this is to locally deploy a package i regularly develop for without installing postgres and all that shtuff 05:44:56 onto my main system 05:45:01 well, the devfs isn't optional either way, and adding -o ruleset=4 is very easy 05:46:01 oh.. yeah that makes sense 05:46:11 whats the -o ruleset=4 for? 05:46:41 see /etc/defaults/devfs.rules 05:47:52 didnt know about all this 05:48:20 basically mount -o ruleset=4 devfs /path/to/chroot/dev 05:48:37 yeah yeah 05:48:40 silly question but 05:48:47 add path stdin unhide... 05:48:57 how did i manage to mount the chroot while this is still set? 05:48:59 that exposes /dev/stdin 05:49:03 yeah i get that 05:49:18 while what is still set? 05:49:20 i mounted the chroot, stdin exists no if im running tcsh in the chroot? 05:49:38 the rule refers to the specific name /dev/stdin 05:50:12 most stuff runs most of the time when devices are missing, but the failures from things like missing /dev/null can be very weird 05:50:47 does... say `printf()' not use /dev/stdin? 05:50:54 am i getting that right? 05:51:03 (it's not like a certain OS I could mention when missing /dev/zero would stop you running any dynamic binary) 05:51:24 printf uses the already open stdin, it doesn't need to look up the name 05:51:34 (i mean stdout) 05:52:02 that's hurting my brain a bit... 05:52:19 having a /dev/stdout just allows programs to create a duplicate of their existing stdout descriptor by doing open("/dev/stdout"...) 05:52:46 don't worry about them, just note that some programs rely on things like /dev/fd/* or /dev/null 05:53:05 i know, its just a curiousity thing while im here 05:53:12 i would assume, say i create a virtual terminal with a terminal emulator (obviously?), that would have to poke /dev/stdout? 05:53:22 right? 05:53:25 not usually 05:54:09 in fact, the most common use of it is probably interactively, where you want to pass stdin/stdout to a program that expects a filename 05:54:40 ah that makes sense 05:54:52 thx for answering unrelated questions mate 05:55:41 I think bash wants to use /dev/fd/* for command redirects like <(somecommand) but it needs fdescfs mounted for that, just the default /dev/fd/{0,1,2} isn't enough 05:56:03 i think that will require extra reading for me 05:56:13 anyway. maybe though, a good first contribution to freebsd would be to make the "jails" command for bsdinstall an alias...? that really bothers me for some reason 05:57:13 and change the "jails" to something like "install-path" (or remove it entirely, and add a special case if it detects a path i.e. bsdinstall /my/path) 05:58:14 * RhodiumToad not really the person to talk to about that 05:58:28 haha 05:58:54 i do appreciate the mounting devfs bit, almost would've forgot and had some troubles 05:58:59 off to sleeps 05:59:50 * RhodiumToad forgets that so many times 06:01:27 im glad i hopped over to the bsd's, feels nice getting assistance on the tighter things and not just "how 2 install a package?" 06:02:01 er, well i assume thats more of a supporting-role issue, so nevermind 06:03:16 * nekobit is still the noob though 06:03:42 we were all once noobs 06:04:15 though admittedly in my case that was back in the days of floppy disks 06:05:06 the availability of online help has improved massively since then :-) 06:05:13 yep yep 06:05:44 it was seemingly a gateway drug for me, i _only_ used all the bsd-like distributions on Linux 06:07:10 chrom esp youube is sloooowww 06:07:16 facbook and twitter also slooooowww 06:08:21 you might look at the memory usage 09:07:07 00:52 This may feel frustrating in some sense, I guess, but on a multi-user system, you probably want some way to restrict which users can become root. ⬅️ even a single human user system will have multiple users, daemons, who do jobs for you, run services for you, and hopefully don't have any big bugs so that when they run rogue, they 09:07:07 can exploit your system 10:20:45 Isnt that what wheel and sudo is used for? 10:20:52 I am not too familiar with Freebsd 10:20:59 Its how it works in Arch 10:33:37 hi all 10:37:38 Can I install previous versions of FreeBSD? FreeBSD 12.1 for example. 10:38:08 Get the right image or use the source 10:39:31 ftp-archive.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD-Archive/old-releases/ISO-IMAGES/12.1/FreeBSD-12.1-RELEASE-amd64-bootonly.iso 10:39:34 is ok? 10:41:01 I want to Compile the DRM Module. 10:41:47 at last I executed the #startx. But failed. 10:42:07 (EE) open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory 10:42:17 (WW) Falling back to old probe method for modesetting 10:43:39 parv: thanks 10:44:35 Seems like the correct 12.1 image from here 10:45:16 What king of GPU do you have? 10:45:24 s/king/kind/ 10:46:03 Lenovo B50-80 10:46:20 Mobile DualCore Intel Core i5-5200U, 2700 MHz (27 x 100) 10:47:04 In other are you saying that you have a Intel (integrated) GPU? 10:47:11 M =8G 10:47:18 yes 10:47:28 intel 10:48:27 I found something like this on the forum and I want to try it: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/freebsd-12-2-startx-failed-ee-open-dev-dri-card0-no-such-file-or-directory.78157/ 10:48:28 Title: Solved - FreeBSD 12.2 startx failed '(EE) open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory' | The FreeBSD Forums 10:49:05 lol 10:49:13 yo9fah, Is a drm-kmod package not available your OS version? 10:50:33 Damn! Reverted to previous version 10:50:44 Is a drm-kmod package not available your OS version? 10:50:55 pff 10:50:58 sorry 10:51:25 I ran #startx but failed. after installation. 10:52:47 I installed freebsd 13, 14... and I get the same result 10:57:31 I remember seeing a mention of needing to add a small Xorg configuration file 11:06:49 So, I try the method from the forum. Thanks again for help 11:07:33 I will come back later 11:07:51 You may be better off with 13 or 14 in terms of support from kernel modules for GPU from drm-kmod port 12:03:50 Is (START)TLS now the default in 14 for sendmail to send out mail (on to relay host)? 12:05:13 I ask for I had to set "Try_TLS: NO" in 14 in mail/access but none has been needed in 13. 12:06:35 This helped: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/144989/how-to-turn-off-starttls-for-internal-relaying-of-emails 12:06:36 Title: sendmail - How to turn off STARTTLS for internal relaying of emails? - Unix & Linux Stack Exchange 12:33:13 parv: I installed freebsd 12.1, but towards the end it doesn't download my packages. It says it can't access the mirror. 12:33:36 Then I installed freebsd 12.4. The installation went well until I started to compile drm-fbsd12.0-kmod. 12:33:37 It stopped the compilation because it could not find the kernel source 12:34:22 So, I give up. I haven't found anything to solve it... 12:36:31 That version of FreeBSD in unsupported. 12:39:48 12.1 I mean. 12:40:03 Have you collected FreeBSD source, stored by default in /usr/src: If not use "git" (or "gitup") to fetch it 12:40:10 Ahhh, I have one more try. I found something like this on the forum: drm-fbsd13-kmod is gone (in favor of drm-510-kmod) 12:40:11 And yes, drm-kmod will require source headers in /usr/src/ 12:40:19 s/:/?/ 12:40:37 Don't use drm-fbsd13-kmod or drm-510-kmod, just use graphics/drm-kmod. 12:40:56 It's a meta-port that can detect which version of FreeBSD you're using and install the right one. 12:41:47 i installed pkg drm-fbsd12.0-kmod , but it did not work 12:42:42 debdrup, thanks. 12:43:43 I will try this too 12:47:49 See "git" use at https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/mirrors/index.html#git ; use it so : pkg install git && mkdir -p /usr/src && git clone https://git.FreeBSD.org/src.git /usr/src 12:47:51 Title: Appendix A. Obtaining FreeBSD | FreeBSD Documentation Portal 12:50:31 Thank you for your kindness. 12:52:37 After that make sure you have right branch for your setup: cd /usr/src && git checkout releng/12.4 (or "stable/12.4", etc) 12:53:27 s/stable/stable/ # yikes 12:54:11 ... wait that was correct but seemed wrong🥴 time to go it seems 14:32:05 Doooh, at the end it stops and asks for linux: https://pasteboard.co/HgcbJujJlhsn.jpg 14:32:08 Title: Pasteboard - Uploaded Image 14:34:07 I think I have to change the laptop. :D 17:45:45 Babaj, (meena) > "You can specify specific user names in the sudo configuration file." Yes, but, you can't use su to install sudo or to edit files until you are in the wheel group. It's a "Catch-22" circular dependency. 17:48:27 Setting the wheel group at install time allows the user to log in and then use "su -" to become root in order to "pkg install sudo" and then to modify files. 17:49:03 After that point one can modify sudoers in any way they wish and the wheel group is not needed for sudo. 17:49:22 rwp: This is possible. I'm not sure. It seems that the "su" used to work without adding a user to the wheel group. 17:49:25 Without being part of the wheel group the only option I can see is to log into the vt console as root. 17:49:41 Babaj, http://www.freebsdwiki.net/index.php/Wheel 17:49:42 Title: Wheel - FreeBSDwiki 17:49:53 Babaj: i think you're thinking of linux; you don't need to be in group 0 to su on linux 17:50:12 it has always been this way 17:51:41 It's humorous but I keep remembering a talk by rms given back in 1986 that I read more recently where the wheel group is mentioned as part of his motivation. 17:52:04 Search this for "wheel" and you will see the part I am talking about https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.en.html 17:52:05 Title: RMS lecture at KTH (Sweden), 1986 - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation 17:52:08 rtprio: No, I was talking about FreeBSD. Perhaps you are right. You've convinced me. 17:53:13 In say Debian the gid 0 group is "root" not "wheel" as in BSD and in Debian et al has no special significance. 17:53:53 In Debian et al /var/log/* files are group "adm" so adding one self to "adm" allows reading /var/log/* without root similar to being in wheel does for FreeBSD. 17:55:02 In Debian et al the default sudoers file uses a "sudo" group is used more similarly to wheel for sudoers as a default to give sudo access. 17:55:47 but that's just something the sudo debian package maintainer thought would be a good idea 17:55:53 Agreed. 17:57:47 It's called "negative transference of learning" when things are similar but different among different systems and one applies something learned on one to another but it is different on the other. 18:03:08 the group name "wheel" goes back to at least TOPS-10 (DEC, 1970's) 18:03:27 Those people were big wheels then. 18:07:14 But it isn't just the util-linux package su as Unix su and System V su did not use wheel, and so commercial systems like HP-UX did not use wheel either. 18:08:31 jgh, It was probably someone at DEC then that originated the concept of a big wheel group. Probably. 18:11:21 Bringing that back to today it means that installing FreeBSD and setting up the user account it is good to add that account to wheel in the installer. 18:11:47 In order to gain access to "su -" in order to be able to do further things. 18:14:07 if i creat a single drive zfs pool and replace the drive's interface (say from a usb sata interface to a sata sas interface, can i simply use the same physical drive like i was doing? 18:14:51 CCFL_Man: I can imagine you might need to re-import it after a scan. 18:15:16 CCFL_Man: The only real obstacle I can envision is if the new interface presents it as a 4K drive where the old presented 512K or vice versa. 18:15:50 i suspect that, but say if i expend my pool from a single drive vua usb to multiple via sas 18:16:05 oh, this is abn old 3GB sas controller 18:16:52 CCFL_Man: You might be able to just do the swap and see if it presents any challenges in particular. 18:17:05 I believe you can always plug a SATA disk into a SAS/SATA controller. The reverse is blocked by the keyed socket. 18:17:15 I think I had something like that happen once when moving from USB to non-USB or vice versa. 18:17:27 Yeah, SATA into SAS is fine. 18:17:54 USB interfaces are mostly awful and there is much buggy USB hardware. It's often the source of weird problems. 18:19:34 I moved to a SAS shelf largely owing to the inadequacies of USB. And then the system moved from Debian to FreeBSD thanks to https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=209177 18:19:42 Title: 209177 – mpt2sas_cm0: failure at drivers/scsi/mpt3sas/mpt3sas_scsih.c:10791/_scsih_probe()! 18:20:10 I should say for USB Storage. USB Storage is awful. Strangely but USB Network devices have been very solid and reliable for me. 18:20:17 but in the end, the drive should be seen the same whether on a usb or sas interface? 18:20:30 CCFL_Man: It could present with a different native block size. 18:20:52 because i wanted to move some data to a new drive that would be part of a single device zpool 18:20:56 ahh 18:20:59 It will have a different /dev path to the new device. 18:21:15 yes, and a different /dev path 18:21:40 If things were set to use a 4K sector size then it will work for either. That's why we universally set things up with 4K sector sizes now for everything. 18:21:59 Good call. 18:22:41 so it should be set up to 4k sector size and i can move from usb to sas and still keep my data? 18:23:24